New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[TxBigHops]

This brewer i talked to also said that huge dryhopping is THE reason for haze.

Do you like the look of this? There's only 8 ounces of a single dry hop in this, a 10 gallon batch. Not even a little bit excessive. I've used just as much to dry hop a West Coast IPA with zero haze.

 

[Braufessor]

i just did a split batch neipa, half with citra and half with mosaic. they are absolutely the bomb! has anyone used any hops that have as wonderful of a flavor as citra, mosaic and galaxy? seems like they still rule for neipa, but i'd like to try some other ones that are in the same ballpark or close. i thought a denali one could be fun. boatloads of pineapple. eureka is good but might be a little much on its own. simcoe seems bland now to me. amarillo has a weird fruity character i'm not a fan of in huge amounts.

In my experience, nothing beats Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic.

However, I do really like using Centennial/Simcoe/Amarillo -that is a nice combo of some of the older hops. Centennial/Cascade/Amarillo too.

Some of the blends are quite good too - Falconers Flight especially.

 

[Hannabrew]

Yeah I just did one with FF...can't wait to see how that turns out.

 

[Dgallo]

Do you like the look of this? There's only 8 ounces of a single dry hop in this, a 10 gallon batch. Not even a little bit excessive. I've used just as much to dry hop a West Coast IPA with zero haze. View attachment 601759

With you there brother

 

[Dgallo]

What is the purported difference? I hear a lot on this topic and often wonder if I should bother testing it myself.

So for those who did perceive the difference, they claimed it was a slightly more intense in aroma and flavor. but the most notable thing they all seemed to claim is that it came off a cleaner distinctive mosaic aroma and flavor.

 

[Dgallo]

It doesn't really matter what kind of fermenter you're using. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. This is just something that I feel is extremely important and overlooked. If you open a fermenter, whether it's a conical with a 1.5" port or a bucket, O2 is getting in and it will reach the beer after you seal it back up. Purging after helps, but the best method is to blast CO2 in through a dedicated port while hops are added then purge again after it's sealed back up. This would be a pain to do with a bucket unless you added a CO2 port and a big dry hop hole to the lid. It can be done, but anyone going to these lengths is probably not fermenting in buckets anyway.

All good brother. I’m fine with have a civilized disagreement. I think of it strictly from a chemistry perspective. Gases can only be absorbed into liquids from agitation and/or pressure. And your correct co2 is only slightly more dense the oxygen but it is more dense so it will drop to the bottom. So as long as you are purging that fermenter with co2 and not splashing, the O2 should exit without being absorbed. Since kegging and purging my fermenters after dryhopping I haven’t had any oxidation issues. Not claiming it’s the only way but I’m successful with it

 

[stickyfinger]

Then your brewer doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's pulling your chain. The research is out there. I believe some of it has been linked in this thread. The distinctive NEIPA look and mouthfeel comes from the proteins in wheat and flaked grains. This is not even argued against by any legitimate source that I'm aware of. But again, don't take my word for it. It's out there and easy to find. The heavy late hop additions and dry hop are for flavor and aroma. Not for the haze.

If my memory isn't failing me, I believe the podcast recently linked in this thread with John Paul Maye from Hopsteiner indicated that 10-15% of the haze in NEIPA is from hop compounds. The proteins account for the bulk of the rest I assume (minus a small amount of haze due to some yeast.)

yes, the haze allows the nonpolar hop compounds to stay in suspension (much more so than the WC IPAs they looked at) but the haze is then reinforced (by 10-15%) by the large amounts of hops added to NEIPAs.

Many of us seem to have gotten very hazy NEIPA without adding any flaked grains or adjuncts as well. We no doubt have much more yeast than the beers Hopsteiner analyzed, but maybe the proteins in an all-malt grist are adequate to produce beers that are not readily distinguishable from high adjunct grists? It would be interesting to see what the protein concentration is in an NEIPA with pale malt only vs one with like 20-30% flaked adjuncts.

EDIT: I just listened to the meaty part of that podcast again and he estimated the contribution to haze from nonpolar hop compounds to be about 10-15%

 

[Braufessor]

I put Braufessor's philosophy to the test and compared a DDH NEIPA vs a single DH batch (same amount of hops)...nobody could tell the difference.

I have tried on occasion (here and there) the DDH again...... personally, still not finding it to really be worth it. I have continued to stick with 6 ounces in the whirlpool once temps drop significantly and 6 ounces of Dry hop on day 2. I like the results and I personally like getting all those hops in during fermentation...... I think it helps alleviate problems with oxygen and also alleviates any potential problems of introducing dry hops later which can kick off diacetyl production that sometimes shows up in beers like this.

I am not doubting that some people might be able to tell the difference..... I just don't think the difference is significant enough or provides a big enough improvement for me to worry about it.

 

[Braufessor]

Oh..... that looks great.

With you there brother
View attachment 601768

 

[stickyfinger]

I have tried on occasion (here and there) the DDH again...... personally, still not finding it to really be worth it. I have continued to stick with 6 ounces in the whirlpool once temps drop significantly and 6 ounces of Dry hop on day 2. I like the results and I personally like getting all those hops in during fermentation...... I think it helps alleviate problems with oxygen and also alleviates any potential problems of introducing dry hops later which can kick off diacetyl production that sometimes shows up in beers like this.

I am not doubting that some people might be able to tell the difference..... I just don't think the difference is significant enough or provides a big enough improvement for me to worry about it.

i'm pretty sure one way a DDH would result in a flavor difference would be if you added your first charge at the usual early part of fermentation and then waited until the beer is basically finished to add another charge 24 hrs before racking. cold crash the beer after the last addition and then rack to keg. i did that once and the flavor of the hops seemed to be pretty different to me compared with the beers when i add them earlier.

 

[Dgallo]

i'm pretty sure one way a DDH would result in a flavor difference would be if you added your first charge at the usual early part of fermentation and then waited until the beer is basically finished to add another charge 24 hrs before racking. cold crash the beer after the last addition and then rack to keg. i did that once and the flavor of the hops seemed to be pretty different to me compared with the beers when i add them earlier.

That’s exactly what I do (that was the ddh I did in the experiment). 2/3 of the dry hop during the back end of fermentation and the last 1/3 36-48hr before cold crash. I can’t remember whose article it was but it stated that almost all the essential oils will be seeped in between 36-48 hours. It was a great read if I find it again I’ll post it. I personally do think I’m getting a better distinctive hop flavor doing it this way

 

[stickyfinger]

i'm pretty sure one way a DDH would result in a flavor difference would be if you added your first charge at the usual early part of fermentation and then waited until the beer is basically finished to add another charge 24 hrs before racking. cold crash the beer after the last addition and then rack to keg. i did that once and the flavor of the hops seemed to be pretty different to me compared with the beers when i add them earlier.

This is the Brulosophy post that gave me the idea to do the 24hr dry hop - it was on a batch of beer I didn't really care as much about so I wasn't worried about oxidizing it in the name of trying things out.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/26/dry-hop-length-long-vs-short-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Hannabrew]

Yeah if you DH early then there's no doubt the DDH will help as a lot of the initial aroma will get scrubbed. That's why I wait until near the end to add the hops.

 

[stickyfinger]

Yeah if you DH early then there's no doubt the DDH will help as a lot of the initial aroma will get scrubbed. That's why I wait until near the end to add the hops.

I should try a split batch, one dry hop all at day 2-3 and the other dry hop 1-2 days before cold crashing. I'm worried about losing the batch to diacetyl though, as it seems to be a problem for me when I dry hop close to packaging. I haven't done that method using the ferment and serve in the same keg approach though.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I should try a split batch, one dry hop all at day 2-3 and the other dry hop 1-2 days before cold crashing. I'm worried about losing the batch to diacetyl though, as it seems to be a problem for me when I dry hop close to packaging. I haven't done that method using the ferment and serve in the same keg approach though.

Fermenting and serving from the same keg is something I've been meaning to try. What kind of whirlpool and dry hop doses are you doing when you do that? Do you find that it's more robust to oxidation for a given post boil hop rate when you do this?

 

[stickyfinger]

Fermenting and serving from the same keg is something I've been meaning to try. What kind of whirlpool and dry hop doses are you doing when you do that? Do you find that it's more robust to oxidation for a given post boil hop rate when you do this?

I've just stuck with my usual rule of thumb in the whirlpool (1oz/gal). For the dry hop, I've added from 1 oz/gal to 2 oz/gal. I've only made I think 7-8 beers this way. My most recent attempt is 1.5 oz/gal. I only filled the kegs to 4G and then pitched a liter starter. I was able to ferment with no foam coming out of the CO2 post on the keg using anti-foam. I think the beers are hoppy for longer, but I haven't done a side by side comparison with my 6.5G glass carboy and racking to a purged keg. I haven't been disappointed with the hops character of my keg-fermented beers but sometimes feel the carboy-fermented beers seem to flag early. It's hard to tell when I switch up recipes and hops a lot. Give it a try! It's a fun thing to do regardless. It's less beer per batch, but I just brew up enough to fill two kegs to 4G. That is enough IPA for me until I brew again.

 

[Dgallo]

Oh..... that looks great.

Thanks dude

 

[TxBigHops]

If my memory isn't failing me, I believe the podcast recently linked in this thread with John Paul Maye from Hopsteiner indicated that 10-15% of the haze in NEIPA is from hop compounds. The proteins account for the bulk of the rest I assume (minus a small amount of haze due to some yeast.)

yes, the haze allows the nonpolar hop compounds to stay in suspension (much more so than the WC IPAs they looked at) but the haze is then reinforced (by 10-15%) by the large amounts of hops added to NEIPAs.

Many of us seem to have gotten very hazy NEIPA without adding any flaked grains or adjuncts as well. We no doubt have much more yeast than the beers Hopsteiner analyzed, but maybe the proteins in an all-malt grist are adequate to produce beers that are not readily distinguishable from high adjunct grists? It would be interesting to see what the protein concentration is in an NEIPA with pale malt only vs one with like 20-30% flaked adjuncts.

EDIT: I just listened to the meaty part of that podcast again and he estimated the contribution to haze from nonpolar hop compounds to be about 10-15%

I could get on board with that. Keeping in mind that 10-15% of haze from hops would include boil and whirlpool hops. What I can't buy is that dry hops are THE cause of haze.

 

[kevink]

They may not be the cause, but they definitely can contribute to it. I take gravity samples throughout fermentation right up until kegging, and my beers almost always get hazier after the dry hop additions. The haze sticks around, too (it doesn't just drop out during the crash).

 

[Dgallo]

They may not be the cause, but they definitely can contribute to it. I take gravity samples throughout fermentation right up until kegging, and my beers almost always get hazier after the dry hop additions. The haze sticks around, too (it doesn't just drop out during the crash).

Polyphenols at work. They have an attraction with proteins. It’s what causes chill haze but obviously for this style it’s a benefit

 

[popquizkid]

Polyphenols at work. They have an attraction with proteins. It’s what causes chill haze but obviously for this style it’s a benefit

Good point.

My opinion (an it is just that) is that it is not just one factor but a combination of factors.

1. Flaked grains = lots of proteins in mash
2. Whirlpool + Fermentation dry hop
3. Yeast

Just me switching from wlp007 to 1318 made a large difference in the haze level for me.

 

[nebulabrewing]

With you there brother
View attachment 601768

That looks delicious. This is mine that I’m currently sipping on.

 

[Golyo]

How is everyone adding the 2nd dry hop with regards to oxygen exposure?

Every hop addition pushes out some dissolved CO2 from your flat beer, but I also increase the temperature a little at the same time, to make the yeast work a little more. I don't cold crash ever and have no problem with oxidation. I bottle usually at around 23°C into lukewarm bottles.

 

[Golyo]

Yeah if you DH early then there's no doubt the DDH will help as a lot of the initial aroma will get scrubbed.

Can you capture that aroma with CO2 capture after the dry-hopping? You probably need to cool the beer at the end a little to dissolve the CO2 back. Cold-crashing would be counterintuitive with this style, I think.

 

[Dgallo]

Every hop addition pushes out some dissolved CO2 from your flat beer, but I also increase the temperature a little at the same time, to make the yeast work a little more. I don't cold crash ever and have no problem with oxidation. I bottle usually at around 23°C into lukewarm bottles.

I’m surprised you’re bottling conditioning NE IPAs and your not having them oxidize on you.

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 601907

That looks delicious. This is mine that I’m currently sipping on.

Looks good man. What hops did you feature in it?

 

[SRJHops]

I’m surprised you’re bottling conditioning NE IPAs and your not having them oxidize on you.

It's possible to bottle condition, but you have to use a closed system and/or avoid oxygen at all costs. I only open the carboy on day 2 for the dry hop addition/biotransformation. There's still active fermentation at that stage, of course, so it pushes out any oxygen. I bottle on day 14 straight from the carboy and into bombers with sugar tabs. I use the oxygen-absorbing caps -- not sure if they really work, but can't hurt. Anyway, I get very little oxidation and the beer drinks great for weeks.

For my latest NEIPA, I added an ounce of hop tea (using Citra Cryo) into each bomber at bottling, so it's sort of a double dry hop -- though the tea was made from boiled water, not beer. I'll know this weekend if the hop tea added even more tasty hop flavor and aroma!

 

[Dgallo]

Good point.

My opinion (an it is just that) is that it is not just one factor but a combination of factors.

1. Flaked grains = lots of proteins in mash
2. Whirlpool + Fermentation dry hop
3. Yeast

Just me switching from wlp007 to 1318 made a large difference in the haze level for me.

Give Imperial yeast a try. I don’t see a lot of people talking about it but my guess is because they haven’t tried it yet. I’ve tried multiple strains from them now and the ester profiles are beautiful

 

[Dgallo]

It's possible to bottle condition, but you have to use a closed system and/or avoid oxygen at all costs. I only open the carboy on day 2 for the dry hop addition/biotransformation. There's still active fermentation at that stage, of course, so it pushes out any oxygen. I bottle on day 14 straight from the carboy and into bombers with sugar tabs. I use the oxygen-absorbing caps -- not sure if they really work, but can't hurt. Anyway, I get very little oxidation and the beer drinks great for weeks.

It’s usually the neck that’s the problem. Your capping oxygen in your bottles so when your yeast reactive and start the carb the beer, All the oxygen in the neck has been forced beer as well.beers would get slightly darker and then after 3 weeks forget it. After getting kegging equipment my life changed lol

 

[Golyo]

I’m surprised you’re bottling conditioning NE IPAs and your not having them oxidize on you.

I have never said they don't oxidize. They do, but they keep up for 5-6 weeks. I just had one tonight 3 weeks after bottling and it was ace. It will have no problem lasting another two weeks, I think, from experience. I keep them in a cool place now, obviously, but not in the fridge.

 

[Golyo]

It's possible to bottle condition, but you have to use a closed system and/or avoid oxygen at all costs. I only open the carboy on day 2 for the dry hop addition/biotransformation. There's still active fermentation at that stage, of course, so it pushes out any oxygen. I bottle on day 14 straight from the carboy and into bombers with sugar tabs. I use the oxygen-absorbing caps -- not sure if they really work, but can't hurt. Anyway, I get very little oxidation and the beer drinks great for weeks.

For my latest NEIPA, I added an ounce of hop tea (using Citra Cryo) into each bomber at bottling, so it's sort of a double dry hop -- though the tea was made from boiled water, not beer. I'll know this weekend if the hop tea added even more tasty hop flavor and aroma!

I honestly think with NEIPA bottling might be advantageous if you cannot do closed transfers. I have a bottle filler, and use warm bottles, so the yeast eats up the oxygen really fast after bottling. At least that is my theory because they last 4 weeks easily.
Only time I had a problem with oxidation was when I cold crashed a batch of heavily hopped beer.

 

[Dgallo]

I honestly think with NEIPA bottling might be advantageous if you cannot do closed transfers. I have a bottle filler, and use warm bottles, so the yeast eats up the oxygen really fast after bottling. At least that is my theory because they last 4 weeks easily.
Only time I had a problem with oxidation was when I cold crashed a batch of heavily hopped beer.

Get kegging equipment. You’ll see what I’m talking about, I promise. The difference in your final quality will improve tremendously

 

[Golyo]

Get kegging equipment. You’ll see what I’m talking about, I promise. The difference in your final quality will improve tremendously

I will get to that sometime. Probably an O2 tank arrives first.

 

[nebulabrewing]

Looks good man. What hops did you feature in it?

For this batch, I used Columbus, Mosaic, and Galaxy hops.

 

[Dgallo]

For this batch, I used Columbus, Mosaic, and Galaxy hops.

I’m big on both mosaic and Columbus. Use them quite often

 

[popquizkid]

Give Imperial yeast a try. I don’t see a lot of people talking about it but my guess is because they haven’t tried it yet. I’ve tried multiple strains from them now and the ester profiles are beautiful

I have an NEIPA with Citra / Idaho 7 that I just kegged that was fermented with Imperial Juice. I am very happy with the results. Probably will switch back to 1318 for the next batch as I bought it for a stout and will keep 16oz of the starter to use in my next NEIPA.

 

[TxBigHops]

Give Imperial yeast a try. I don’t see a lot of people talking about it but my guess is because they haven’t tried it yet. I’ve tried multiple strains from them now and the ester profiles are beautiful

This. Imperial has become my go to yeast. I've brewed with flagship, pub, darkness and juice. Great experience with all of them. Next NEIPA I'm planning on trying barbarian.

 

[Dgallo]

This. Imperial has become my go to yeast. I've brewed with flagship, pub, darkness and juice. Great experience with all of them. Next NEIPA I'm planning on trying barbarian.

Try dryhop if you end up liking the barbarian. it’s a blend of barbarian and their citrus. Crazy ester profile. Make sure to drive the fermentation if you have that capability. I let it ferment real high. Like 76-78. Just awesome.

 

[Dgallo]

I have an NEIPA with Citra / Idaho 7 that I just kegged that was fermented with Imperial Juice. I am very happy with the results. Probably will switch back to 1318 for the next batch as I bought it for a stout and will keep 16oz of the starter to use in my next NEIPA.

Never tried fermenting a stout with any of my ipa yeast. Could def be interesting. Just be carful with that small of a starter. I’m a firm believer in a fast fermentation. Depending on the age of the yeast, I typically always do 2 liter starter

 

[nebulabrewing]

I’m big on both mosaic and Columbus. Use them quite often

I was surprised at how well these three blended together. My next one I'm going to take my regular Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy/Azacca blend.