Noob steeping -what is the effect?

[Garage Brewer]

Hey all, I'm doing a 5 gallon LME brew in a 10.5 gallon Anvil today (still working my way up to all grain). The recipe calls for heating 6 gallons to 170F, while steeping a total of 15oz of grains. It says to do it for 30 mins.

Well, I threw the grains in at 80F and turned the Anvil on to do it's thing. By the time these 6 gallons hit 170 the grains will have steeped for about 70-80 minutes.

Any thoughts on how longer steeping may effect the beer? How about 15oz in 6 gallons, is that a good ratio? I just browsed some of the other steeping threads on here and I'm wondering how big of a misstep I've made.

 

[mac_1103]

I doubt that you've done any damage. I guess maybe if you've got some really dark roast grains in there you might get some astringency, but even that seems unlikely to be too much of a problem with a pound in a five gallon batch. I know that some kit instructions say to steep while heating but I usually heat to 150F and then throw the grain bag in and steep for 30 minutes. What's the recipe?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The concern is extracting tannins.

The book How To Brew (4e), p 58, suggests that the conditions that promote tannin extraction are a combination of long steep time, higher temperature, the grains being steeped, and source water alkalinity.

I agree with @mac_1103. There's probably no harm (but the steep time was longer than commonly used and the amount of alkalinity in the water is currently unknown).

If you get astringency in the beer, Palmer suggests steeping in an roughly OG 20-ish wort (using low / no mineral water). Add some of the DME/LME to the low / no mineral water (your tap water may be fine), steep for 30 minutes at 150F (or from room temperature to 160F), then remove the grains.

 

[Garage Brewer]

I doubt that you've done any damage. I guess maybe if you've got some really dark roast grains in there you might get some astringency, but even that seems unlikely to be too much of a problem with a pound in a five gallon batch. I know that some kit instructions say to steep while heating but I usually heat to 150F and then throw the grain bag in and steep for 30 minutes. What's the recipe?

Thanks Mac - I don't think I used any dark roast grains. Just Great Western White Wheat, Briess Caramel Malt and Breiss Carapils malt. None of them look very dark or roasted.

 

[Garage Brewer]

Oh, and the recipe is 7 Deadly C's, off the MoreBeer site.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/renegade-rye-extract-beer-kit-3.html

 

[hotbeer]

Is this how they worded it...

Take your cracked flavoring grains (such as crystal, chocolate, roasted barley, black patent malts, etc.) and put them into a large nylon mesh bag. Put the bag into the heating water and remove when the water reaches 170˚F, allowing about 30 minutes to do so. If you reach 170˚F in less than 30 minutes, turn the heat off and let the grains steep until a total of 30 minutes has passed.

https://www.morebeer.com/category/extract-brewing-instructions.html

Their instructions are basic instructions. They could put more detail in them, but for a noob, that too can be overwhelming. For the average person brewing with the average equipment, these instructions probably work well. No matter how you interpret when you should remove them.

So just keep going and expect your beer will be good beer. Get another six pack to tide you over if needed. Don't rush it.

You'll see a lot of different members here that seem to or are doing different things. Much of the reason for that is because there are quite a few ways to go about making beer. So don't get too antsy just because you didn't do something someone else will have done.

 

[Garage Brewer]

Is this how they worded it...


https://www.morebeer.com/category/extract-brewing-instructions.html

Their instructions are basic instructions. They could put more detail in them, but for a noob, that too can be overwhelming. For the average person brewing with the average equipment, these instructions probably work well. No matter how you interpret when you should remove them.

So just keep going and expect your beer will be good beer. Get another six pack to tide you over if needed. Don't rush it.

You'll see a lot of different members here that seem to or are doing different things. Much of the reason for that is because there are quite a few ways to go about making beer. So don't get too antsy just because you didn't do something someone else will have done.

Yes, that was the instructions. I'm not sure exactly how long it takes an Anvil Foundry 10.5 to heat 6 gallons to 170F, so I just took a guess and was off by about 40 mins. I could've taken the grains out after 30 mins, but the water was only at 113F or so, and I didn't figure leaving them in lukewarm water an extra half hour would do much harm. But then I read the threads here on steeping, and started to wonder.

Anyway, that batch will not be fine, because the Anvil had an error 50 mins into the boil, and I had to dump the entire thing. The Foundry threw an E3 code ("unit is accidentally run without water") and shut itself down. Apparently 6 gallons of wort counted as "no water". Extremely frustrating. But . . . I was stirring the wort with a long beater/mixer connected to a drill and I must have bumped the pin on the bottom or something.

Chalk this one up to multiple learning experiences I guess.

 

[hotbeer]

50 minutes into the boil? I'd have just thrown in any remaining hops and additions. Cooled it and put it in the FV. It might have become something good to drink. Or it might not have.

I don't tend to fuss when things don't go as planned. Punts can win a game too.

Yes, there will be many learning experiences. My number one thing is not to call it a failure until you've proven that it's a failure.

Things like your Anvil futzing up keep me glad I still just use a big stock pot and induction coil.

 

[Bobby_M]

The dry fire code happens when a sensor on the bottom detects a temperature well over boiling. I suspect this may have been from that insane amount of malt extract and it probably settled to the bottom and started the overheat situation. Did you turn the heat off while you stirred the extract in? If not, I'm leaning towards this as the situation.


I don't know if dumping the batch was necessary because you could have dumped it all into a bucket to perform the reset in the manual.

If the unit is accidentally ran without water the dry run switch will cut the power to the heaters. An error code “E3” will appear to reset: 1. Turn off the unit and disconnect from power. 2. Allow the unit to cool. 3. Flip over the Foundry™ and depress the pin to reset.

 

[AlexKay]

Yes, that was the instructions. I'm not sure exactly how long it takes an Anvil Foundry 10.5 to heat 6 gallons to 170F, so I just took a guess and was off by about 40 mins. I could've taken the grains out after 30 mins, but the water was only at 113F or so, and I didn't figure leaving them in lukewarm water an extra half hour would do much harm. But then I read the threads here on steeping, and started to wonder.

Anyway, that batch will not be fine, because the Anvil had an error 50 mins into the boil, and I had to dump the entire thing. The Foundry threw an E3 code ("unit is accidentally run without water") and shut itself down. Apparently 6 gallons of wort counted as "no water". Extremely frustrating. But . . . I was stirring the wort with a long beater/mixer connected to a drill and I must have bumped the pin on the bottom or something.

Chalk this one up to multiple learning experiences I guess.

YIKES! Why dump it? That sounds like a completely recoverable mishap.

 

[Garage Brewer]

The dry fire code happens when a sensor on the bottom detects a temperature well over boiling. I suspect this may have been from that insane amount of malt extract and it probably settled to the bottom and started the overheat situation. Did you turn the heat off while you stirred the extract in? If not, I'm leaning towards this as the situation.


I don't know if dumping the batch was necessary because you could have dumped it all into a bucket to perform the reset in the manual.

Ahhhh - well, ok - I'll tell the rest of the ridiculous story since you all are right - why would I dump a batch 50 mins into the boil instead of just put it in the fermenter?

There's a reason.

So ... in addition to brewing yesterday, I was also doing a BBQ. I had been smoking eight burgers on a pellet grill for the family. I was going back and forth from the garage brewery to the side yard trying to multi-task. About 45 mins into the boil I went to flip the burgers (again), and realized I had forgotten an important step in the brewing. I hadn't added the LME.

Yep. I was boiling grain-steeped water and hops for 45 mins - no LME whatsoever. Oops.

So - I turned off the Anvil and immediately dumped in 11lbs of LME (into the kettle that was just boiling). But hey - I turned it off, right? Just like the instructions said. Anyway, after the LME was dumped in I turned the Anvil back on and hit it with the drill-mixer. About three or four minutes later I got the E3 code. After dumping the batch, I saw the bottom of the Anvil was scorched pretty bad. Fortunately I was able to clean most of it off with 160F water, PBW and a lot of scrubbing.

So, that's the whole dumb story. I dumped the batch because while I had boiled it for 50 mins - I only hade LME in it for about 4 mins.

I mentioned I was a noob in this thread, right?
Welp.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

 

[hotbeer]

I mentioned I was a noob in this thread, right?

And apparently a noob that get's pissy when others of us suggest that other things could have been done.

Remember, it's what we'd do in the situation we imagined from the information given. Not what your situation was that we knew nothing about. So you have to take what is given as things to think about and consider.

Not that you ever have to actually do what others might say do.

 

[Garage Brewer]

And apparently a noob that get's pissy when others of us suggest that other things could have been done.

Remember, it's what we'd do in the situation we imagined from the information given. Not what your situation was that we knew nothing about. So you have to take what is given as things to think about and consider.

Not that you ever have to actually do what others might say do.

Gets pissy?

I'm just trying to share the story in a humorous fashion because it was embarrassing but kinda funny in retrospect.
Sorry if it came across some other way.

 

[hotbeer]

Sorry if it came across some other way.

Yeah, it's hard to know how to take the written word sometimes.

I too apologize for digesting it the wrong way.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm just trying to share the story in a humorous fashion because it was embarrassing but kinda funny in retrospect.

Good on you for finding humor in it. I personally would struggle to see the humor in dumping a $50 kit.

I am truly sorry for your loss.

 

[Garage Brewer]

Good on you for finding humor in it. I personally would struggle to see the humor in dumping a $50 kit.

I am truly sorry for your loss.

Thank you. $12 in bottled water too. Expensive lesson. At least I know why I got the E3 error now - cooking LME on the heat pin. I feel better knowing I'm taking <$100 in losses. For a while I thought my Anvil might be broken. That would've been really expensive.

Next time I'll just focus on the brewing. I was gonna pour out a 40oz for the dead batch, but you know - I didn't have any beer left.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Anyway, after the LME was dumped in I turned the Anvil back on and hit it with the drill-mixer. About three or four minutes later I got the E3 code. After dumping the batch, I saw the bottom of the Anvil was scorched pretty bad. Fortunately I was able to clean most of it off with 160F water, PBW and a lot of scrubbing.

Good to read that your AIO is back in good shape.

When I brew with 'extract' it's almost always DME - as I prefer to brew my own recipes and LME doesn't store well. That being said ...

I've brewed a couple of times with LME 2.5 gal batches, 4 gal kettle, induction cooktop. What I saw is that LME sinks rapidly, without dissolving on the way to the bottom. The cooktop was off and I removed the kettle from the cooktop when adding the LME.

If Anvil has discussion forums, do they have tips/techniques for avoiding scorching/burning the LME?

If not, one approach would be to dissolve the LME in a "side pot" using hot water (from the AIO). A good time to do this would be just after removing the grain bag.

 

[mac_1103]

When I brew with 'extract' it's almost always DME

This. DME has some issues of its own (such as dust clouds and clumping) but they are easy to overcome and advantages over LME far outweigh the few disadvantages IMHO.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

tl;dr? DME vs LME may be a regional (USA) consideration.

With DME, and along the "north coast" USA (aka "Great Lakes" region), anticipate dust clouds in the winter and clumps in the summer. It's easy easier to prevent (or correct) this if one remembers to "brew with the seasons".

That being said, I've been to FL (Orlando) in June: Walk out of the hotel at 8 am and it's 90F and 90% humidity. WTF !?!.

Under those conditions, I'd either quit home brewing or "go all grain and never look back".

 

[Bobby_M]

With the expanded story, I think there are some obligatory tips I should share.

Don't try to brew while you have other obligations.

Just go for the all grain kit next. Sure, there are other challenges, but burning crap to the bottom isn't one of them.