No Squeeze Sparging

[Magnus314]

Good data will help each person decide for themselves what is best for their situation.

Let's avoid trying to convince others that ours is the "best" way, but rather collect/report data, and let people decide for themselves. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Brew on

I totally agree with this. A also though this thread was surprisingly civil, probably cuz we're all BIAB'ers (or at least reading in the BIAB part of the forum).

One interesting thing to check: If you squeeze the bag, leave it hang after anyway, even if it's just over a bucket or something so you can see how much it drips. If it's zero, your recovery has been great, and squeezing is saving you time with no loss. If it's any, hanging would recover more, but probably take longer, which may or may not matter to you.

With the "let it hang" method there are still some intermittent drips even after a pretty long time. They don't add up to much, volume wise, but it's easy to just let it drip into a pitcher or a bucket or whatever and pour it into the boil.

On night brews where I didn't dump the bag until the next morning, there was a cup or so of drips on the ground and the top half of the grain in the bag was so dry it was crunchy. So it'll get pretty dry.

 

[doug293cz]

One interesting thing to check: If you squeeze the bag, leave it hang after anyway, even if it's just over a bucket or something so you can see how much it drips. If it's zero, your recovery has been great, and squeezing is saving you time with no loss. If it's any, hanging would recover more, but probably take longer, which may or may not matter to you.

I usually let it hang well into the boil, until the slow drip, drip, drip has almost totally stopped. This is quite a bit longer than the 10 min drain I used in the squeeze experiment, but then I needed to get two squeezes and a sparge done I doubt it would drip any significant amount after I squeezed.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

Have you ever been a squeezer?

Yes, I must admit to the group, I have squeezed a few bags.

Firstly, my grain bills are usually 16+ pounds for 1/4 keg batches, that I hoist above the kettle and are hanging and draining. What I have noticed, is that after a good squeeze session, the bag would still be running a decent drip. I have even stuck a pint glass under a dripping bag for 30 seconds or so and was impressed how much was collected...like dimes make dollars, so do drips make gallons

What I also realized, is that after giving the bag a good squeeze to the point I was satisfied, I discarded the grain bag in a bin for later disposal, low and behold there was a puddle of wort in the bottom of the bin a half hour later...

So then I figured, hard as it may be, and very tempting to squeeze, I'll be damned but I'm gonna just let that sucker hang over the kettle well into the boil, and low and behold I could only squeeze a few ounces...guessing the hanging bag produced more during the long hang time then my previous attempts at a hurry squeeze.

Also, after every squeeze attempt, I'd kinda shake my head while going to rinse my sticky hands, thinking screw this, is it really worth it. I usually have a pantry full of 3-5 sacks of grain purchased at around $0.75 / pound, why am I stickying my hands for pennies...have I become some sort of brewing mizer?

When I use my mash tun, do I tilt it and mash the grain down towards the drain to try and capture the last bit...of course not? Now lately, I see folks building devices to squeeze a bag?

I've been at this a while, and have come to appreciate that if something doesn't improve the beer, or make the process easier, well then be damned don't do it!

Most importantly...if squeezing is pleasing to you...knock yourself out and squeeze all day baby.

So maybe one could say I'm a recovering bag squeezer after having seen the dark side of bag squeezing. cheers y'all!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yes, I must admit to the group, I have squeezed a few bags.
HEYO!


So then I figured, hard as it may be, and very tempting to squeeze, I'll be damned but I'm gonna just let that sucker hang over the kettle well into the boil, and low and behold I could only squeeze a few ounces...guessing the hanging bag produced more during the long hang time then my previous attempts at a hurry squeeze.

I usually left it to hang a bit, then when it slowed down I pressed. Looks like our first attempts came at it half way but from different directions.

Now lately, I see folks building devices to squeeze a bag?
Now that you mention it, anyone got an apple press I could borrow for an hour or so? :rockin:

I've been at this a while, and have come to appreciate that if something doesn't improve the beer, or make the process easier, well then be damned don't do it!

Agree whole heartedly. I can't wait to get back to brewing, and do some exbeeriments. 1st up is a shorter mash, then maybe I'll do see if I can find a way to hang the bag above my stovetop which is unlikely unless I can pull the range out 8 inches or so. That much weight will probably damage the cheap cabinet doors in the apartment, or the microwave door hinge.

Good post, thanks for the thorough answer. I guess I'll have to give it a whirl going the suspended from ceiling route and see how much is left over and if I can't squeeze down on it a bit more.

 

[TexasWine]

As promised here, I will be conducting the sparge but no squeeze cell of the experiment I outlined here on Saturday, 11/1.

In the first part of the experiment, I mashed with 7.5 gal of water, and only sparged with 0.5 gal. My question to the folks following this thread:

For the no squeeze + sparge, should I use the same mash and sparge volumes, or would it be better to decrease the mash volume and increase the sparge volume? Due to dead space under the stainer basket, I can only drop my strike volume to about 6 gal. That would leave 2.35 gal for pour over sparging.

What is the best way to conduct this experiment, and why?

Brew on

My original thought was to use the same amount of water in the strike, but the sparge volume would have to be increased to account for the fact that there is no squeeze.

But, I don't know why we'd need to use the same amount of strike water other than it eliminates another variable.

Anybody else got opinions?

 

[doug293cz]

I have completed cell #1 of the experiment I outlined here. Cell #2 results were reported here. The process used for cell #1 was the same as for cell #2, with the exception of lower strike volume + higher sparge volume, and not squeezing the bag before or after sparging.

Here is the result summary:

Because of the lower strike volume, I started with a higher strike temp, but still ended up with a lower initial mash temp. I also lost more temperature during the mash even though the pot was insulated exactly the same way for both. Not sure what effect, if any, this would have on the final results.

With the limited accuracy of dip stick volume measurements, along with the slight mash temp differences, I would not feel confident stating that the results for cell #1 and cell #2 are significantly different.

Take away: little or no difference between squeezing vs. no squeezing when using long drain + pour sparging.

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I have completed cell #1 of the experiment I outlined here. Cell #2 results were reported here. The process used for cell #1 was the same as for cell #2, with the exception of lower strike volume + higher sparge volume, and not squeezing the bag before or after sparging.

Here is the result summary:

Because of the lower strike volume, I started with a higher strike temp, but still ended up with a lower initial mash temp. I also lost more temperature during the mash even though the pot was insulated exactly the same way for both. Not sure what effect, if any, this would have on the final results.

With the limited accuracy of dip stick volume measurements, along with the slight mash temp differences, I would not feel confident stating that the results for cell #1 and cell #2 are significantly different.

Take away: little or no difference between squeezing vs. no squeezing when using long drain + pour sparging.

Brew on

Good data point. While it's only one, I'd persuades me to go with no squeeze sparge once I get my bigger pot in a couple days.

 

[Devin]

There appear to be some posts on this thread that are leaning towards debate on the "best" way to conduct BIAB. I don't think this thread was intended for debate. Can we just agree that people will have different ideas about what is "best" based on their preferences, level of importance of cost vs. efficiency, convenience, and equipment constraints? Then we can keep the thread focused on empirical data from measured results for different options. Good data will help each person decide for themselves what is best for their situation.

Let's avoid trying to convince others that ours is the "best" way, but rather collect/report data, and let people decide for themselves. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Brew on

I didn't see any posts trying to say that their way was the "best". There was just my post asking why are people fussy about squeezing the bag. It wasn't intended to start a debate. It was just an honest question. I have been seeing several posts lately about people complaining about squeezing the bag. I was just curious to hear why - I don't think it is that hard to do.

I still call BS on gravity being able to pull out as much liquid as squeezing. I know I can apply more pressure to the grains than gravity can. More pressure = more liquid extracted. Is the difference that noticeable? Perhaps not with an extremely long hang.

 

[abrew2u]

Hey gang. Been mulling an idea in my head. For you folks that sparge, I wanted to know if any of y'all simply sparge to pre boil volume without squeezing. This seems to be a lot less work than pressing on a hot bag of grain.

My thinking is that there will be no detectable difference in the pre boil gravity following a no squeeze method as opposed to the squeeze/sparge/squeeze combo method.

For those of you who don't squeeze but still sparge, can you share some of your thoughts or results? And for those like me who are sparging squeezers, would a few of you mind joining me in attempting a no squeeze brew day?

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I didn't see any posts trying to say that their way was the "best". There was just my post asking why are people fussy about squeezing the bag. It wasn't intended to start a debate. It was just an honest question. I have been seeing several posts lately about people complaining about squeezing the bag. I was just curious to hear why - I don't think it is that hard to do.

I still call BS on gravity being able to pull out as much liquid as squeezing. I know I can apply more pressure to the grains than gravity can. More pressure = more liquid extracted. Is the difference that noticeable? Perhaps not with an extremely long hang.

More pressure definitely means more liquid extracted per minute. But if a natural gravity drain extracts lets say 80% of the liquid, and squeeze extracts 85% or even 90%, I'd still not squeeze. Simpler brew day at the cost of 50 cents more grain is okay with me.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If my maths are correct, 0.625 gallons was left in the "unsqueezed sample". That's quite a bit, but of unknown gravity. I think if the study were done, squeeze vs. no squeeze all the squeezers would have applauded.

For me, I'm gonna stick with the "hang and drain" for ease of execution and non sticky hands. Maybe I'll start a group, SA or Squeezers Anonymous

wilser
former squeezer now recovering

 

[doug293cz]

I think if the study were done, squeeze vs. no squeeze all the squeezers would have applauded.

wilser
former squeezer now recovering

Not sure what you mean. The study I did was squeeze vs. no squeeze. Can you please elaborate?

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Not sure what you mean. The study I did was squeeze vs. no squeeze. Can you please elaborate?

Brew on

1 data point is not a study

Assuming perfect rounding in squeezers favor (best case scenario), 1.001 OG corresponds to about .25lb of 2row. I'm okay with that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Not sure what you mean. The study I did was squeeze vs. no squeeze. Can you please elaborate?



Brew on

Your example included a sparge with the no squeeze....so I guess it was squeeze vs sparge no squeeze.

Squeeze vs free drain might be interesting, but I think you need to free drain for 30-40 minutes.

Had the exbeeriment been without the sparge, more gravity points would have likely gone to the squeeze. With over a half gallon left in the no squeeze, I would guess that it was not allowed to free drain for very long. I'm comfortable with the pour over sparge, free drain for ease of execution.

Thanks for the effort...not sure it matters all that much, so the easiest path might be the best, for me anyways.
Cheers
Wilser


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[doug293cz]

1 data point is not a study

It's two data points, one for each process. And, where is it written that a study must have replicates? Yes, this is a very limited study. I only have so much brewing and fermenting capacity, so can't run lots of replicates in a short amount of time. And, I have some other recipes I like to brew as well.

My experimental runs were not perfectly controlled, and I expressed doubts about this when I first outlined the experiment here. That's why I did my best to report discrepancies in the conditions between runs, and noted the limitations on volume measurement. I'm just presenting what data I have so people can interpret it however they wish, as long as they don't try to assign it more significance (in a statistical sense) than it warrants.

How about some other BIABer's running controlled squeeze vs. no squeeze trials and reporting their results?

Brew on

 

[Magnus314]

2.125 gallon sparge vs. none and more boil off means weirdness happened in your experiment.

That and only a 10 minute difference in drain times = not a wide enough gap between "A" and "B" to be any more definitive than 1 out of 51 gravity points...

 

[doug293cz]

2.125 gallon sparge vs. none and more boil off means weirdness happened in your experiment.

That and only a 10 minute difference in drain times = not a wide enough gap between "A" and "B" to be any more definitive than 1 out of 51 gravity points...

Pre-boil volumes are equal within the accuracy of the measurement technique, as are post boil volumes, so no significant difference in boil off. Also, it's 0.5 gal sparge vs. 2.125. If you're going to nit pick, at least get the nits correct.

The drip rate after the 20 drain was low enough that even if I left it for another hour, I wouldn't have collected enough additional wort to measure (in the BK.)

The original question raised by the OP was whether or not BIABers who sparge, but don't squeeze where giving up significant efficiency. The intent was to run both processes as they might be run by their adherents. If I had run the sparge only cell with as little sparge (edit: was "strike") water as the squeeze cell, then I don't think that would have represented a typical no squeezer's sparge process. I couldn't do more sparging as my system is marginal at 6.5 gal of strike water. It would be possible to rerun the squeeze + sparge cell with less strike water, but the sparge volume would still be less than the no squeeze cell in order to get the same pre-boil volume. I have other variations I want to compare before I revisit the original squeeze + sparge cell. It's a good thing I like the recipe I'm using for these experiments.

Brew on

 

[TexasWine]

I have completed cell #1 of the experiment I outlined here. Cell #2 results were reported here. The process used for cell #1 was the same as for cell #2, with the exception of lower strike volume + higher sparge volume, and not squeezing the bag before or after sparging.

Here is the result summary:

Because of the lower strike volume, I started with a higher strike temp, but still ended up with a lower initial mash temp. I also lost more temperature during the mash even though the pot was insulated exactly the same way for both. Not sure what effect, if any, this would have on the final results.

With the limited accuracy of dip stick volume measurements, along with the slight mash temp differences, I would not feel confident stating that the results for cell #1 and cell #2 are significantly different.

Take away: little or no difference between squeezing vs. no squeezing when using long drain + pour sparging.

Brew on

This is good stuff! I think what you're doing here very much replicates what a typical day might look like for a lot of folks.

I'll be brewing this weekend. Going to use a recipe that I did a squeeze/sparge/squeeze on last time. This time, sparge only. Don't know that I'll have all the data points you've collected available to me for my last batch, but it'll be interesting anyway.

 

[solbes]

Most of my BIAB batches used an aluminum 7.5 gallon kettle, an aluminum fryer basket suspended form the ceiling by rope and pulley. Worked very well since I could keep the bag off of the kettle bottom, allowing me to mashout prior to lifting the bag&basket. I would drip sparge over the bag with 170 water to nearly my pre-boil gravity. And then use a sauce pan lid to squeeze that bag. No mess, no burned sticky fingers. Between 70 and 90% efficiency depending on grain bill size (9% to 4.5% batches).

Fast forward to a larger 15 gallon stainless kettle with a stainles ball valve. One of my goals was to get rid of the aluminum, so both the basket and kettle were given away to a coworker. I don't have a stainless fryer basket, so it was difficult to hang the bag and get any sparge water in there. Just picked up a 5 gallon stainless kettle for dunk sparges for free from Midwest Supplies. So my last brew, a 2 hearted IPA with a 13 lb grain bill was my first test. And a good one as its the third time I've brewed it overall. I mashed as normal and skipped the mashout (still want to figure out a way to incorporate this). Dunked the 13 lbs of grain in about 2.5 gallons of 170 water in the 5G pot for 10 minutes. After that I suspended the bag above the 5G pot and let it drain, pretty much the whole boil. I added most of it prior to starting the boil. No squeeze. I was @ 76% efficiency, whereas I was 77 and 79% efficiency before with my aluminum setup which I considered optimized.

So I may be done monkeying with my new setup, especially if I can just suspend the bag 1/2" off the bottom so I can do a mashout. I bet that gets me the 2-3% efficiency.

 

[Magnus314]

Pre-boil volumes are equal within the accuracy of the measurement technique, as are post boil volumes, so no significant difference in boil off. Also, it's 0.5 gal sparge vs. 2.125. If you're going to nit pick, at least get the nits correct.

This is totally correct and deserved. Too much homebrew before analyzing!

My point, poorly made, was that a 1 point difference on a 1.058 beer is likely just an effect of the different sparge amounts, or natural variation in batches.

If this kind of experiment is reasonably easy for you to run, I'd love to see if the result holds up over repeats. I'd bet it pretty much would.

 

[doug293cz]

My point, poorly made, was that a 1 point difference on a 1.058 beer is likely just an effect of the different sparge amounts, or natural variation in batches.

If this kind of experiment is reasonably easy for you to run, I'd love to see if the result holds up over repeats. I'd bet it pretty much would.

My conclusion was that from the data obtained, it is not possible to say there is any difference in efficiency of the two processes tested. The differences are not large enough to assign them statistical significance. Maybe my wording was a little obtuse. It is also not possible to say there is no difference. The only thing I can say with confidence is that any differences are likely to be small. Also, no conclusions can be drawn about process variations that were not tested.

The experiments are easy to run. I just have to collect a little more data than I usually do during a normal brew day. And, I may need to modify the equipment in minor ways. I don't plan to do any major equipment mods as part of this series of experiments. One limitation is that I don't want to brew the same beer all the time. But, I did select this recipe to use for a series of single hop brews for me to learn about the taste and aroma of different hops. So, I will be brewing it a lot, interspersed with some other styles/recipes.

The next variations I want to run are:

1. Full volume (no sparge), long drain with basket.
2. Full volume (no sparge), long drain without basket.

I will do these before I do any replicates of previous cells. And, I might find other new variations I want to do before any replicates.

Brew on

 

[Randy64]

Just finished reading the thread. Thanks for sharing your work doug293cz.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I definitely consider that a no squeeze approach. Do you also do a sparge while it sits over the bucket?

I don't know how I missed this but NO I don't sparge. I can get my recipe I just brewed and hit 70% efficiency with if you want to compare. I brew in a keggle and usually mash with around 9-10 gallons of water.