No CO2 kegging idea

[mattd2]

So my reg is still busted and looks like it will be a while till I can get it fix/a new one so.......
I am thinking about ways to keg with no CO2, I posted a gravity feed idea a while back that I still haven't tried out but now I thinking of a new idea.
So here it is, If I keg a corny only 1/2 fill and prime with sugar I can use the pressure in the head space to push the beer out. Now heres the trick, since I'll have 1/2 the keg filled with CO2 at pressure, once the keg is empty I will have a whole keg filled with CO2 @ half the initial pressure and if I prime the keg with enough sugar to get enough pressure in the keg so that it starts a little bit over carbed and ends up a little bit under carbed.
Example: prime the keg to give 2.79 volumes @ 41F = 16 PSI, once empty the keg will be at 8 PSI = 2.06 volumes @ 41F. Since the beer will degas when the pressure drops of hopefully it will be a bit more than 2.06 (don't really know about this statement).

I just tapped 5 gallons of beer with no regulator and manage to push about a gallon out before there was no gas left (started with about a 1/2 gallon of head space), I have put more priming sugar (regular amount for 4 gallons - not 1/2 like usually recommended for kegging) and put it in my hot water cupboard so I'll report back on that in a week or 2.

The biggest hassle I think I'll have is figuring out the right amount of sugar to prime with to get the right amount of CO2 but I'm working on that, might have to experiment a bit as well though.

So any thoughts/comments?

 

[bad coffee]

Carb with priming sugar, then get one of these:

http://www.bikebarn.co.nz/default.aspx?action=search&results=12&order=3&q=co2&searchterm=co2&Go=Go

B

 

[bmckee56]

Purchase a new regulator. Make life simple.

Salute!

 

[mattd2]

So...... no real help then?
I know I could just go buy a new regulator or a tire inflator but as I said " looks like it will be a while till I can get it fix/a new one" because I don't have any spare money. I saw a post on another forum from some guy claiming he primed kegs with the normal amount you would use for bottling and that gave him enough CO2 to push the entire keg out but I am very sceptical of that claim. Anyway I will try my plan out and post back for anyone who is interested.
Cheers

 

[Walker]

i really doubt you would be happy with the results.

If there is enough pressure to serve a keg as a result of priming, then that beer will almost certainly be overcarbed at the start of the keg and flat at the end of it.

 

[944play]

Not that you'd want to, but you could possibly increase the effective headspace by jumpering the gas port to a second keg.

Still, you're subjecting your beer to a lot of oxygen. Drink fast.

 

[GRHunter]

You are assuming that the additional CO2 will just stay in the head space. Obviously a lot of it will be absorbed by the beer so I don't think that will work. As has been already mentioned, keep life simple and go buy a new regulator. Here's a suggestion to make that happen. Plan a beer party for 10 friends and collect $10 from each of them in advance. They get some great home brew, you get a new regulator, and if they drink you dry you get to brew some more beer. It's a win-win-win situation.

 

[david_42]

If you've got the parts, you can make a gas2gas jumper to connect two kegs and ferment sugar water in one for CO2.

 

[bad coffee]

You could use vinegar and baking soda and create a whole lot of CO2.

Probably less than a gallon though:
http://collectiblebrochures.findfas...-fill-a-gallon-ziploc-bag-with-carbon-dioxide

B

 

[mattd2]

Thanks for the useful input to this, and to summarise the points mentioned:
Oxidation from 2.5 gals of air when kegged - solution drink fast, 2.5 gals of beer will last less than a month even at a 1/2 pint a day and it will be drunk as soon as it is carbed and clear and not to green (expecting 4-6 weeks + 4 weeks to drink = 10 weeks max in keg).
over/under carb - will between 2 and 2.8 volumes really be a big issue, or are you saying that my assumption that the final pressure will be half the initial pressure is wrong?
GRHunter - I am planning on the CO2 being assorbed by the beer as that is the point of natural carbination, I will try and add enough sugar to hit my target initial pressure/volumes.
Jumping into another keg - could be useful but my fridge can only fit 1 keg without needing to modify it and I already have a chest freezer that can be used for a keezer so I don't want to gut the fridge.
Producing extra CO2 in jumped keg - see above and why, I already have the yeast in the beer, still need to wait for it to carb - I don't see any real benifit for this sorry.

Again thanks for the input, I have a can and kilo brew that is pretty much done so 1/2 of that will be going into the keg and 1/2 bottled, when the keg is nearly floated I will do a blind taste test of a keg/bottle beer (assuming the theory stacks up and I actually have enough CO2 to push the last bit out!)
Cheers!

 

[Airborneguy]

Why not just bottle until you can fix your problem? You seem to be interested in an extremely complicated fix which will only change the profile of your beer (over-carbing will change the beer just as much as if it oxidized, just in a different way.)

 

[BeerPressure]

start bottling.

 

[ksbrain]

You could use vinegar and baking soda and create a whole lot of CO2.

I think this one has potential but I wouldn't want vinegar smell in my beer. But what about a Party Pig kind of thing where you do vinegar and baking soda in a bag that acts as a pressurized bladder pushing the beer out of the keg?

 

[robtotten]

I have no idea if that will work, but it's a creative solution. I'd be curious to know if anyone has tried this.

If you've got the parts, you can make a gas2gas jumper to connect two kegs and ferment sugar water in one for CO2.

 

[weirdboy]

Stick it on a high shelf and let gravity do the work of pulling the beer out of the keg.

 

[Rushis]

Start brewing real ales in 3 gal batches?

Good luck with your creative endeavor.

 

[mattd2]

You seem to be interested in an extremely complicated fix

Yes, is that an issue?

On the taste I think doing a comparison between a beer kegged this way and bottle at the start, middle and end will be better than just at the end. Then I can tell you for sure if it is an issue.
For over/under carb complaints, sure it will not be in style for the particular beer but will 2.0 - 2.7 volumes be so undrinkable that I won't be able to even give it away

 

[marzsit]

i think you would have trouble getting the keg to seal without any co2 pressure.. i've always had to pressurize cornies to at least 30psi initially to get the o-ring and lid to pop up completely after sealing the lid.

 

[mattd2]

Stick it on a high shelf and let gravity do the work of pulling the beer out of the keg.

Yeah, but that would also mean lifting the fridge up there as well or making a jockey box (which would cost money and then I may as well just use that money to buy a new reg!)

 

[Soulrebel]

If your using the sugar/water/yeast Co2 production method, your Co2 keg would not have to be in the fridge with your beer. Just use the Co2 keg, attach a jumper to the gas posts and the kegs will equalize pressure between themselves.

 

[mattd2]

i think you would have trouble getting the keg to seal without any co2 pressure.. i've always had to pressurize cornies to at least 30psi initially to get the o-ring and lid to pop up completely after sealing the lid.

Have you been using any keg lube for the o-ring? I just added priming sugar to a keg that ran out of puff the other day and it seems to be holding pressure.

 

[mattd2]

If your using the sugar/water/yeast Co2 production method, your Co2 keg would not have to be in the fridge with your beer. Just use the Co2 keg, attach a jumper to the gas posts and the kegs will equalize pressure between themselves.

You mean just top up the pressure from the CO2 keg ever now and again?

 

[SweetSounds]

I'm curious how your regulator is busted?
Rebuild kits are a hell of a lot cheaper than a new regulator, and new gauges are easy to install if that's the issue.

A cornelius regulator repair kit is less than $11.00, and gauges are about $6.00 at chicompany.net...

Just a thought

 

[Airborneguy]

Your answers have me confused as to whether you are looking for a solution to your problem or a debate on the issue...

 

[Jethro]

I don't think you can carbonate a half keg like you want to. It would be like trying to bottle condition beer with the bottles half full. The small amount of head space is what creates enough pressure to carbonate at room temp. You would need to add enough priming sugar to achieve something like 30-40psi at room temp to carbonate the beer. And having a half keg of air in there won't help the beer much.

 

[mattd2]

Your answers have me confused as to whether you are looking for a solution to your problem or a debate on the issue...

Sorry if it seems like I'm looking for a fight, basically I know the easy answer is to buy/rebuild the regulator but with having to pay $300+ to fix our cars radiator I won't really have money to do this for a while. I could just bottle everything but as many that have gone to kegs know it is just to hard to go back to cleaning all those bottles. I have seen a few post asking if there is a cheaper way to start kegging and if this works it would be awesome. I know that it will probably be no where near the ease/exactness of just hooking up your reg and setting it a 13 PSI but at least its something.

What I was looking for is neither a solution or a debate but more comments on any issues I might come across, i.e. possible oxidation from a large initial headspace of air and since someone has mentioned this I can plan for it (drink fast/don't let it sit or age for to long) so I don't go s**t I just wasted 2.5 gallons of beer becasue of a simple oversight that could have been avoided.

The regulator I got is a mestriner which is Italian and I got it from my dad who had it lying around, the poppet seal "stuff" looked to be brittle when I opened it up to investigate and I have had no luck getting an answer from the company so it looks like my only option is new.

I appriciate all the sugestions so far and I will post a new thread with results of any tasting I do on this.

Cheers

 

[Airborneguy]

Just an observation. You seem to have a retort to every suggestion, which makes it pointless to try to help you. Good luck, I hope it works out.

 

[mattd2]

Just an observation. You seem to have a retort to every suggestion, which makes it pointless to try to help you. Good luck, I hope it works out.

But all the suggestions are helping me. Do you not think that me responding with a possible solution or reasons why the suggestion probably won't work to the problem/suggestion is better than just giving up straight away?
In your opinion were the 2 first replies to this thread any help at all? Whereas the reply of the ton of headspace might cause a problem with oxidation was helpful (still no real solution to that).
Thanks and I will definately post some results so that this will not be a pointless thread.

 

[bendavanza]

If you weren't so far away I'd donate a regulator to you. As someone else pointed out, with a corny keg, lid sealing can be difficult to achieve or even check without a regulator and some gas.

 

[mattd2]

If you weren't so far away I'd donate a regulator to you. As someone else pointed out, with a corny keg, lid sealing can be difficult to achieve or even check without a regulator and some gas.

Thanks, it's the thought that counts! Yeah a reg from a welding gass supplier here will cost $200+, I could get a cheap one from the states (after I check that it will screw into my bottle) for about $40 but shipping would be about $45 which equals about $120 after exchange rates kick in!

I have been thinking about the CO2 keg idea a bit more now, found some info that 180g sugar produces about 45 l of CO2 when fermented (fermenting 1 mol (180g) of sugar produce approx 2 mol ethonal (84.7g) & 2 mol CO2 (44.8 l)). Still have a lot of air in the head space to deal with but I think if you "made" 10 gal of CO2 then so you would have 1/3 air and 2/3 CO2 in your keg, then purged back to 0 PSI, then "made" another 10 gal CO2 you would end up with about 10% air in the tank. Of coarse you would need to draw off the alc after each ferment so not to get those yeasties too drunk
The this would be a free source of CO2 to purge/seal the keg with a bit of hassle but thats the fun and you can't expect it to be completely free

Power point presentation on fermentation check out the last 3 slides on page 3 (alc yeild, byproducts CO2 & Heat)