no boil prehopped beer kits

[fluketamer]

for those actually reading along , i split my chicken poop lager THAT I MIXED UP IN LESS THAN 30 MINUTES into two batches. one with lager yeast and the other with the kit yeast (m10) way back on june 14th.

i opened the chicken coup door today and decided to tap the m10 ale version after 20 days slow carbing.

its good but lacks ale flavor which i guess makes sense. its kind of plain so i imagine it would work for a pseudolager like the kit intends if you cold condition it for a while. but it is missing the crispness of my diamond lager yeast that i love so much. side by side lager vs ale yeast with the same wort is FUN. i got diamond vs notty right now on the above recipe and am curious what the results will be.

i would not recommend using the yeast in these kits if you have better yeast.

side topic - exchanging kit yeast is an entirely different subject. if you want to have discussions about kit yeast thats easy . the sister site has years of kit threads and many reference yeast substitutions. yeast substitution for THESE TYPES of kits used to be standard for years. more recently coopers included yeast has improved greatly.

kit brewing (coopers, muntons, brew demon, brewferm, festival, wherry, mangrove jack, abc, wilkos , to name a few ) is a thing sorry.

you know the chicken poop lager label is being designed as i type.

cheers

 

[mac_1103]

you know the chicken poop lager label is being designed as i type

I'll be expecting royalty checks.

 

[fluketamer]

mac , when i go to my lhbs and pick up grain and hops for 2.5 gallon biab batch im always surprised how cheap the total is on the receipt. especially a low grain bill like a lager. i can do it for half the price of a coopers stout kit (24ish with shipping plus fermentables) .
i boost it with chocolate malt , roasted barley, a little black patent., flaked barley or oats and dme or even dextrose to boost abv. the bitterness i get from the grains and shorting the coopers kit provides enough for me that i dont add extra hops to stout kits.
however, it takes me three times as long to cook up a biab batch then to spill all this into a fv.

my next route to save time is likely going to be the dr hans shake n brew method im so curious about this one.

 

[DollarStoreChili]

I have to ask, with all the gymnastics and lipstick you have to smear on these kits, what exactly is the aversion to just starting with 100% fresh ingredients and brewing a premium product? After all is said and done, you saved what $10 max? It's one thing to argue that the kit makes good beer on its own (I wouldn't believe that), but you exhibit the confirmation that the kit isn't good as designed. Why continue to support a business/product that needs to be doctored beyond recognition to make it drinkable? I understand this might be insulting but I'm honestly curious about the motivation.

I can't speak for the more experienced forum users, but I bought the kit because of the price
point with the full intention of following the directions to the letter. Previously I had only brewed
very simple mead and grape juice wine in one gallon batches. The cheapness of the kits and the
low fuss brewing method seemed like the perfect stepping stone to start beer brewing.

As an aside: I've been keeping track of my expenses meticulously. A side goal of mine is to see if
I can brew beer as cheaply as your average gas station macro brew. I don't care if it's great, I just
wanted to see if it was possible. With these kits it almost seemed possible but I have yet to do my
final round of math that includes the cost of the dextrose and other brewing supplies. I haven't
figured out how I will factor in the bottles and brewing equipment since they're reusable for
future brews. I realize it's more of a dream than a reality but it's a fun goal to chase.

 

[mac_1103]

when i go to my lhbs and pick up grain and hops for 2.5 gallon biab batch im always surprised how cheap the total is on the receipt

I'm usually surprised at how high the total is, but I guess that's because I usually make big batches of big beers.

 

[Wrendelar]

I have to ask, with all the gymnastics and lipstick you have to smear on these kits, what exactly is the aversion to just starting with 100% fresh ingredients and brewing a premium product? After all is said and done, you saved what $10 max? It's one thing to argue that the kit makes good beer on its own (I wouldn't believe that), but you exhibit the confirmation that the kit isn't good as designed. Why continue to support a business/product that needs to be doctored beyond recognition to make it drinkable? I understand this might be insulting but I'm honestly curious about the motivation.

First off... I all-grain brew twice a month... but for me personally, it's about the experimentation of the "Craft". I like trying all different methods (tried the shake N brew (failure) and Double Fermentation of an all-grain saison/lager (Success)), it's a creative outlet. if it works great if it doesn't oh well. This goes for every brew I make regardless of method.

I also understand that there are people that don't have the room or the money to invest in an all-grain setup. Have a $6 food-grade bucket from lowes or homie depot and a pasta pot you can make the beer. In reality, you don't even need the pot just the bucket. Corn sugar isn't that expensive, and if you are really strapped you can use table sugar (not advised but results would be similar). In the end, they made their own homebrew, will it be the best? Unlikely, but they have the satisfaction that they made it themselves. Which in reality would hopefully spark them to do it again and possibly start saving up for a true brewing system.

To say these kits saved $10 is flat-out false. Personally, my homebrew system and all the bits and bots have cost me over $1-1.5K and I know I am on the low end of the Home brewing crafters. These beer kits can be made over and over again for about a $60 entry fee (2 buckets, sanitizer bottle wand and siphon, hydrometer, caps, capper) and 4 $10 kits that shipped free (with Nottingham yeast replacements). Might even be able to find it all cheaper on the secondary market like Facebook or craigslist.

Here is an analogy:
Person 1 goes to the store and buys a pound of pasta, a jar of sauce, a lb of ground beef, a jar of crushed garlic, and an onion. comes home and browns the beef and the onions and garlic and dumps the jar of sauce on top mixes it together lets it simmer while boiling the pasta and plates it.

Person 2 grows their own tomatoes, onions, garlic, makes their own pasta, and only goes to the store for the beef and flour. They scratch make everything and follow a similar process as Person 1.

In the end, both people made pasta with meat sauce ... which is better? Does it matter?

The thing for me is chasing the craft and being experimental, at the same time I have my tried and true recipes that are always on tap, Experimentation is the only way new things will ever be found or created.

The mixing up of the kit was to experiment with an unknown for me (I started all grain and my own recipes from day 1, never did the kit thing, and never did the extract or partial mash things either).

Failure was my tutor and success was my motivation.

Just my 2 cents take it or leave it.

Brew On!

 

[Wrendelar]

mac , when i go to my lhbs and pick up grain and hops for 2.5 gallon biab batch im always surprised how cheap the total is on the receipt. especially a low grain bill like a lager. i can do it for half the price of a coopers stout kit (24ish with shipping plus fermentables) .
i boost it with chocolate malt , roasted barley, a little black patent., flaked barley or oats and dme or even dextrose to boost abv. the bitterness i get from the grains and shorting the coopers kit provides enough for me that i dont add extra hops to stout kits.
however, it takes me three times as long to cook up a biab batch then to spill all this into a fv.

my next route to save time is likely going to be the dr hans shake n brew method im so curious about this one.

I did the shake and brew ... mine crashed and burned .. it was beer but the hop burn was outrageous ... i may have rushed it so it may have been user error. Yeah, let's go with user error ... it was a fun experiment though.

 

[mac_1103]

Personally, my homebrew system and all the bits and bots have cost me over $1-1.5K and I know I am on the low end of the Home brewing crafters.

I've done extract, partial mash and all grain. I brew in cheap pots and ferment in cheap buckets. I just sprang for a "major" upgrade - a $60 propane burner and an $80 ten gallon kettle. So with respect, you're nowhere near the low end and it's not necessary to spend $1000 on equipment to brew all grain.

 

[Wrendelar]

I've done extract, partial mash and all grain. I brew in cheap pots and ferment in cheap buckets. I just sprang for a "major" upgrade - a $60 propane burner and an $80 ten gallon kettle. So with respect, you're nowhere near the low end and it's not necessary to spend $1000 on equipment to brew all grain.

Point taken, but where I live I can't have propane so I had to go electric (which comes at a cost) but ROI is there too.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, well, it's a little contradictory, in my opinion, to suggest you're chasing the craft yet using some of the most objectively poor ingredients available. It can mean different things to different people but I thought chasing the craft was doing whatever is reasonably in your means and ability to create a "thing" that you can be most proud of. I guess some joy can be attained by making something acceptable against all odds, but it's a strange fascination.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Sometimes it's about 'novelty', not 'experiments'.

Kit 'hacks' have been around (almost) as long as kits have been made (e.g. recipe books from the 1990s published by Storey Publications).

It's good to see that there is an active on-line community that is customizing these kits - and that they are sharing detailed recipes and detailed processes.

As for whether or not these kits actually make beer, consider the following:

wort with more than (say) 30% honey is not beer, it's braggot.​

​

So rather than claiming that a wort with 50% sugar is "beer", maybe just enjoy it for what it is.

eta [7/24/23]: FWIW, percentages in a grain bill are by weight.

 

[fluketamer]

do you mean by weight or by volume. I think some bmc beers have 30 percent adjunct



edited post

 

[Rish]

I did the stout today. Used 2# table sugar instead of 1kg dextrose and cut volume to 5 gallons. Wort smells delicious! OG 1.052.

 

[Wrendelar]

Racked the pale ale to secondary today .. gave it a taste .. first I thought it was sour then on second sip it was the dip hops I was tasting. The aroma is very pleasant, I’ll let it ride and see where it ends up. Still darker then I was expecting but we will see when it hits the glass.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Still darker then I was expecting but we will see when it hits the glass.

For those who brew with un-hopped 'extract' on a regular basis, it's well known that one doesn't attempt to evaluate color until it's in the glass. And 'advanced' un-hopped extract brewers, working with un-hopped 'extract' of an unknown age, will often measure the color of the 'extract' before adding it to the kettle. If it's "red" at the start of the boil, it's not going to be lighter by the end of the boil.

FWIW: I remain curious about the shelf stability of no-boil hopped-extract products.

And that's a two-part curiosity.

1) Does the no-boil hopped extract darken over time? And if it does, ...​

​

2) does the darkening (staling) create the same off flavors (e.g. 'ball point pen') that come from stale un-hopped LME? ​

​

3) (bonus question) is there a difference in packaging (pouches vs cans)?​

 

[Wrendelar]

I’m not and extract brewer so this is new to me.

but I will attempt to answer your questions once it’s in the glass!

cheers!

 

[fluketamer]

https://brulosophy.com/2017/11/27/the-impact-of-age-on-liquid-malt-extract-exbeeriment-results/

 

[fluketamer]

https://help.mangrovejacks.com/hc/e...ype,if stored in cool places as we recommend.
a little company spin?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

a little company spin?

As I've mentioned recently (and previously, and probably a couple of times before 'prevously'), if color darkens, but those "ball point pen" off flavors don't occur, there may be something interesting here.

With regard to "un-hopped" LME, one can find honesty (aka no 'company spin') here: Secrets to Keeping your Liquid Extracts Fresh - Brewing With Briess

With regard to exBEERiment | Impact Using Old Liquid Malt Extract Has On A German Pils (Nov 2017), see the link above. It's good to see a "3rd party" confirmation of information from a malt priovider.

Honestly, I could likely find "sound bites" from BBR Aug 25 2005 / Nov 17 2005 (yes, 2005) that would confirm what the Brulosophy (2017) found.

Variance in liquid malt extract colour in the paler kits is common due to batch to batch variance along with natural colour pick up over time.
This is due to Maillard reactions, a type of non enzymatic browning which has a similar effect to caramelisation.

The colour pickup occurs over time and is accelerated at higher temperatures, so if the kit has been stored in a warm shop or warehouse it would be darker than if stored in cool places as we recommend.

The beer will still be fine to drink, though the darker/older one will have a richer, maltier flavour than the one lighter coloured brew.

So, assuming no "ball point pen" off-flavors, when life give gives you lemons you get old hopped extract, make lemonade make brown ales.

 

[fluketamer]

like i said i may add roasted malts to the kits to make porters and stouts if they are too dark. not sure why the lager i made which came in the same order wasn't darkened but the pilsner was? maybe it was kept in a cooler area?

in terms of pouch vs can aging i dont know i have never got a can kit that was darker than expected. but i dont know the storage conditions of either?

 

[fluketamer]

theres some threads on the sister site about using old lme regarding stouts ill try to post the links

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

With regard to "un-hopped" LME, one can find honesty (aka no 'company spin') here: Secrets to Keeping your Liquid Extracts Fresh - Brewing With Briess

I read that recently (probably from somewhere else you shared it) and decided to freeze the other kits I have, since I'm not sure when I will brew with them.

 

[mac_1103]

"ball point pen" off-flavors

This is a new one on me. Is it the plastic or the ink?

 

[fluketamer]

I was going to ask the same about the ball point pen thing although I have read that on the other site. I don’t think I’m tasting that in the beer. What I am detecting is sort of a subtle smell of unfermented dme. Which seems to dissipate with age. its Also only in the batch I fermented with the kit yeast the diamond lager yeast seems to have cleaned up the beer much better than the ale yeast.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Off flavors" lists for stale LME often also include "metallic", licorice, and molasses. The 2005 BBR podcast episodes may include a couple of additional flavors.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I read that recently (probably from somewhere else you shared it) and decided to freeze the other kits I have, since I'm not sure when I will brew with them.

/r/homebrewing has a wiki/faq page that covers properly storing ingredients.

 

[Spivey24]

What a complete $hit show these brews have been. I have done close to 100 all grain batches, and after a few beers, I ordered 5 of these - 3 Pilsner and 2 brown ale. I was curious if I could use what I know now to make an easy beer. It came with 5 packs of Nottingham yeast, which I do not care for 1st generation, so I did a starter to see if I could improve it. Come “brew” day, I heated the water in my kettle and drained to the two 7 gallon fermenters, then attempted to add the kits. I didn’t warm the kits enough so that was the first mess. I used 1.25 kits per batch which was the plan, then was short on dextrose(thought I had more), so ended up with gravity at 1.036 making sure all lme was dissolved. Took almost 2 full kits for each batch to get the gravity to a respectable 1.050. Smelled like molasses instead of wort - just saying. Cooled the wort to 64.
Pitched the yeast from the starter and it was going strong down to 1.025 then just stopped. Dead stopped. Readings are from 2 Tilts which I have used many times and are pretty accurate. After several days of nothing, I repitched another pack of notty in each dry. This got it down to 1.020 and dead stopped again.
I am pretty sure this is a 10 gallon dumper at this point. Can’t have the fermenters occupied. Last kit will be used for starters.

 

[smata67]

I've done a single kit so far, the Brown Ale. Added 4lb LME and 6 oz of demarara for a 5G batch. Also steeped some dark grains and split into two 2.5G batches, one pitched with the stock yeast (Empire, apparently), the other with S05. Dry hopped the Empire stock--smelled like Chinook to me-- and the S05 with Cascade. Calculated FG of 1.066, ended at 1.023 (5.5% ABV) with the Empire and 1.017 (6.5% ABV) with the S05. Not unusual for an extract batch in my opinion. Pre bottle sample tasted fine, maybe overly roasty, it probably didn't need the steep, but will hold judgement on that until done. Only odd thing so far was the beer was quite turbid out of the fermenter, though appears to be clearing up in the bottle. Probably won't pop any open for at least 2 weeks.

 

[Wrendelar]

Kegged up the pale ale kit on Sunday. Have it sitting in my kegerator at 10 psi will give it a check this weekend. Had enough to bottle a 6 pack as well tinker it naturally carbonate.

The sample tasted pleasant with a very nice hop aroma.

Will have a final opinion in a week or so

 

[fluketamer]

the blonde with extra hops, notty and carapils came out very good. much better than the pilsner kit . the half batch i fermented with diamond lager yeast will be kegged tomorow. as an aside i think i would have been better off warm fermenting with diamond at 70 than notty at 70. warm fermented lager yeast comes out tasting more like a lager than ale yeast does for a pseudolager imo

spivey sorry to here that . i would let it ride and taste it before dumping it. if it doesnt taste good you wouldnt want to use it as a starter anyway.