New to cider...

[simplecj]

Hello, I'm about to try out my first hard cider in hopes that it will be finished by the holidays.

I have a smack pack of 4766 Cider Wyeast Activator

I'm shooting for a 5 gal batch of spiced cider.

Not sure what apples I'm using as I am going to shop around for local grown apples and that may be hard considering I'm in southern Utah. A blend of sweet to tart apple varieties in a 2:1 ratio for overall sweetness.

Spices: Cinnamon, cloves, ginger, nutmeg??, orange zest... and ???

I'm wanting to get something semi-sweet with a wasil type spiced flavor and a high ABV around 9 or 10%.

Going to try for 3-5 gallons apple juice (using a centrifugal juicing machine) and substituting watter to make up the extra volume.

My main question is what is the best sugars to add for a rich flavor and higher OG, and how much to add?? I've heard everything from brown sugar to corn sugar to corn syrup. I'm thinking brown sugar would be the best or maybe molasses, but I'm not sure how these different sugars will effect flavor as they are consumed by the yeast.

Also, I'm up for any suggestions on what spices to add and how to get the strongest spiced flavors in the finished product.

 

[newell456]

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=361248

It doesn't address all of your questions, which I'd also like to hear the answers to, but it's a start.

 

[OdinOneEye]

If you're just starting out with cider, try to find some pressed cider without any preservatives in it. It'll be a lot easier, a lot cheaper, a lot lighter and you'll get a better head for basic recipes before experimenting with blending your own apples.

Remember that roughly 15 lb of apple= 1 gallon of juice.

 

[simplecj]

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=361248

It doesn't address all of your questions, which I'd also like to hear the answers to, but it's a start.

Ya, I already saw that one using honey as the extra sugar. I'm more curious if anyone has tried this with brown sugar or molasses. I might be wrong, but with honey added, doesn't that make that recipe a spiced cyser, not a straight cider? Either way, I want to know if it is desirable to add a dark sugar rather than a straight sugar like corn sugar which adds almost no flavor, only alcohol.

Heavy and flavor packed is what I want and I'm thinking a heavy dark sugar like molasses might be perfect!

I've read that some people wait to add spices in the secondary. Simmering the spices with some additional sugars to a nice thick spice filled soup. Supposedly adding it shortly after racking to a secondary carboy preserves the aromatics and desirable flavors in the finished product... makes sense to me. Any opinion on whether this is a good or bad idea?

Does 1 lb honey = 1 lb molasses??

 

[simplecj]

I'm also super stoked to try out Ed Wort's suggestion of making grog on cold days... mmmm... sounds delicious! I'm so excited! You can't find this stuff in Utah unless you make it or know someone who does!:rockin:

 

[newell456]

Molasses can be very overpowering, and it's very easy to overdo. If you want to kick it up with additional sugars and use molasses, I think it will be too much molasses if you don't use another sugar as well. I would suggest brown sugar because it's esentially table sugar with a small amount of molasses, and the molasses wouldn't be overpowering. If you want to it to be semi sweet, particularly if you want to carb in the bottle, then you'll want to pick a yeast that won't ferment to dryness. There are sweet mead yeasts or wine yeasts that leave some residual sweetness that your LHBS should be able to suggest. The other options, of course, is to stop fermentation and back sweeten and then force carb or don't carb or to add a nonfermentable sugar if you want to bottle carb.

I'll be able to tell you in a month or so how an apfelwein with brown sugar and English Ale Yeast works out, but that won't help much with your christmas batch.

 

[Adolphus79]

Yes, using honey instead of sugar would make a cyser.

Ed's Apfelwein with 2 pounds dark brown sugar is very good. The molasses imparts a very nice tartness, while still not being too overpowering. Everyone that tried that recipe like the little bit of 'spicyness' that the dark brown sugar gave it.

Using molasses as your primary source of fermentables means you're making a rumbuillion instead of a cider. I am making a rumbullion right now, and it is quite strong. A very high ABV, and a very strong taste of molasses. Rumbullion is basically just pre-distilled rum, it's what they drank as 'Molasses Beer' in the Caribbean a thousand years ago before they realized they could distill the stuff. If you're looking for it to still taste like apple cider when you're done, I think you'd be better off with the dark brown sugar instead of using pure molasses.

As far as the spices go, I've heard of a number of people using pre-packaged apple pie spices. Or you could just figure your own spices out. I'm thinking about adding a little cinnamon and nutmeg to one of my next batches of Apfelwein to have a mulled hard cider to warm up around the holidays.

 

[simplecj]

Well I figured if I can make this batch with a high OG, would like to finish off at 9 - 10%.. maybe for the sake of turning this out for christmas I should lower my expectations to 6- 8%?

Hmmm... I have several other dry yeasts at my disposal..

Cooper's Brewing yeast - fruity finishing ale yeast, not sure what ABV tolerance is.. guessing around 6-8%

Lalvin K1-v1116 Montpellier - vigorous fermenting wine yeast tolerant to 14%

Lalvin 71B-1122 Narbonne - semi-sweet wine yeast, tolerant up to 14%

OR the Wyeast 4766 Cider Activator Smack-Pack

 

[simplecj]

Thanks for the tips on molasses and brown sugar!! I'm thinking maybe half honey (or dextrose since I just happened to order some this morning) and the other half natural brown sugar?

Lets see.. how does this sound.. (the birth of a new recipe begins!!)

Name.... um..
BeNicer Spiced Cyser - or - The Psuedo Cyder - or - Colassal Wasil... hehe..

Primary brew...
4 1/2 Gallons cider/juice
1 lb honey
1 lb brown sugar
1/4 tsp Potassium metabisulphite
2 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
(do I need nutrients? I do have them..)

Cider Wyeast Activator

Secondary: spices/flavorings

8 cinnamon sticks
2 tbs whole cloves
1 tbs pumpkin pie spice
1 tbs orange zest
1/4 cup lemon juice

Spices simmered in (?rum?), water and a little extra brown sugar to help extract flavors, then add lemon juice once the "flavor sauce" has cooled down a little. Add this, unfiltered, to a freshly racked secondary after primary fermentation has leveled off... adding more sugar to sauce IF gravity is already pretty low from the primary ie: "feeding". Why not feed if I'm using a yeast that goes up to 12%??

Let sit and finish for 2-4 additional weeks, then bottle and age till until the holidays arrive!! My brew room sits between 68-72 F so I'm assuming a more vigorous and faster finishing brew.

I really have no idea, but this is sure fun learning!

I also have a few other batches going right now... All kits...

Orange Blossom Mead - 5 gal - secondary 12% might be able to push this up to around %14 - long ways to go...

Holiday Ale - 5 gal - secondary 4.9% - hopefully some hoppy goodness!

Honey Amber Ale - 6 gal - bottled last weekend @ 5.8%, can't wait to crack one open!

Raspberry Red Ale - still waiting to be brewed...

I feel like a mad scientist!... ok sorry, it's late...

 

[mgayer]

I hate to tell you this but that may Cinnamon sticks would make it wayyyyyy to strong. I used 1 stick, started it in the primary and moved it to the secondary. A total of 6 weeks and I had to add some more cider to the batch to cut it down in strength. Remember that the spices will get stronger. Four weeks may not be too bad for half that but it would amost be undrinkable at that level.

If your wanting it quick stay away from the honey. I love the honey flavors but not for a speedy batch. The Brown sugar does real well and does give a bite but ages very well for a couple months. Be careful on the lemon juice also, it will raise the PH and stick your fermentation, however Vanilla and orange do work very well. 1 bean scraped and tossed in will give a great flavor and I dropped a bit of orange extract in my Wasaill cider. A bit of nutreints will help it go a faster.

If you want the ABV up a bit step sugar additions. You could add a bit more brown sugar when racking to secondary. By the way look at my yeast test. I real do like the Coopers yeast and it is really fast. The gallon I have aging is at 8.5% ABV. Ready in about 6 weeks. Done fermenting in about 2 1/2 weeks, racked for aging in about 30 days. It dropped a few more lees in the past couple weeks but crystal clear and getting better. The higher your ABV the longer it will need aging!

 

[simplecj]

Great tips guys...

You said ONE cinnamon stick overpowered the whole batch?? I had about 4 of them in my holiday ale and I didn't really even notice the cinnamon when I racked it. Of course that was what was included in that kit... Ok, cut down on cinnamon sticks... maybe just one or two.. (any second opinions on cinnamon??)

Replace honey with the pound of dextrose I just ordered... OR go with a full two pounds brown sugar..??

Wonder if 2 tbs cloves is overdoing it now... hmmm...

Oh yes, so you said Cooper's would be a good one?? I can always do up a second batch of straight cider with the cider yeast... You'll have to let me know how your yeast test goes!

Name: Colossal Wassail... hehe.. this will be fun to say when you're toasted!

Primary Brew...

4 gal cider/juice (probably want to get a fifth gallon for topping off and enjoying what's leftover)
~1 gal fresh juiced apples, sweet or tart depending on desired finished taste (you'll need about 14 pounds of apples for one gallon)
2 lb dark brown sugar
1/4 tsp Potassium metabisulphite
2 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
2 tsp Yeast Nutrients
Cooper's Ale Yeast

Secondary: spices/flavorings (you can adjust potency to taste)

3/4 cup spiced rum
1/2 cup water
3 cinnamon sticks (or 2 tbs ground)
2 tbs whole cloves (or 1 tbs ground)
2 tsp nutmeg
1 tbs ground ginger
~1/4 cup brown sugar
1 tbs orange extract
3 tbs lemon juice

After primary fermentation has leveled off considerably, rack into a secondary fermenter. Then simmer spices in spiced rum and water to help extract flavors. Strain or scoop out cinnamon sticks and cloves if you used whole instead of ground. Add a little extra brown sugar to thicken the sauce before it cools. Add lemon juice and orange extract once the "flavor sauce" has cooled down a little. Then add it to the freshly racked secondary.

 

[simplecj]

Ok... I just spent a few hours driving around checking prices on apples and looking for apple cider. Apparently the stores aren't expecting to see any cider till around Halloween, so that's out... Also apples at around a $1 per pound with about 60 pounds to get approximately 4.5 gallons of juice = $60...

Then I went to the health food store and they have gallons of organic apple juice, with lots of sediment. The only additive that's in it is ascorbic acid which is not something I think I need to worry about. It's about $7 per gallon, but that makes it about $35 for a 5 gallon batch, HALF what it would cost for the apples.

SOOO... organic apple juice it is!!! Perhaps I'll buy a couple pounds of apples to add for fresh unfiltered juice?

I'm determined to get this going this weekend!!! I would appreciate any recommendations on my revised recipe above... spices good? What do you think about simmering with rum and sugar and adding it in the secondary?

 

[Adolphus79]

You could also just go pick up some generic apple juice from your local grocer. It would probably be even cheaper than the organic food store stuff. I get mine from my local food mart for $1.50 a gallon. Just make sure that it's 100% apple juice with no preservatives, and yes, ascorbic acid is OK. Also, if you go that route, you don't need to worry about campden or pectic enzymes. You would only need to add those if it's fresh pressed unfiltered stuff.

 

[mgayer]

Remember that I dropped the Cinnamon stick in the primary and transfered it to the secondary also. So it was in there at least 6 weeks. I think you idea of simmering your spices and then adding will be great. You can do a bit of testing to make sure you don't get too much in there.

Look for my posting on the finished flavoring and taste of the yeast test under Cider Yeast Test on this forum. I am partial to the flavoring Brown sugar gives but the mixtures of sugars does give some added depth. I did an apple wine with Brown sugar, white sugar and honey. It was great but took a bit longer to age.

I agree with Adolphus79! Using regular apple juice will work just as well. It is easier to clear but check the gravity first as even the same brand bottled at different time will have more or less sugars.

Best of luck on the brew!

 

[simplecj]

Thank you for the suggestions! I was thinking maybe even the frozen concentrate stuff, but then I crunched the numbers and it would take about 14 cans to make the 4.5 gals at about a buck per can ~ $15. If I can get some Mott's or Tree Top juice already mixed, I don't have to worry about boiling a huge pot of water because those juices are already pasteurized and I wouldn't have to use any tap water at all!

I got a wild hair last night and threw together a 3 gal batch of a AppleBerry wine, pitched with the Cooper's Yeast. That stuff wastes no time!! Less than 8 hours later and it is ROLLING!!

AppleBerry Wine

5 cans apple juice
3 cans pomegranate bluberry juice
3 packs frozen raspberries
1 lb dextrose
2.5 gal water
additives (pectic, potass M, nutrients)
Cooper's Brewing Yeast

 

[simplecj]

Here it is... the final recipe I'm going to start this weekend! I'll let you know how this goes if you'd like!

Colossal Wassail (spiced cider)

Primary Brew

4 gal cider/juice (probably want to get a fifth gallon for topping off and enjoying what's leftover)
~1 gal fresh juiced apples (and maybe a couple pears), sweet or tart depending on desired finished taste (14 pounds of apples ~ one gallon)
2 lb dark brown sugar
1/4 tsp Potassium metabisulphite
2 1/2 tsp Pectic Enzyme
2 tsp Yeast Nutrients
Cooper's Ale Yeast

Juice apples first and pasteurize by raising temp to 160 F then removing from heat. Once it's removed from heat you can stir in the brown sugar and other additives. If you didn't have enough juice to mix everything, just add some of your bottled apple juice to increase volume. Once the pot has cooled to under 90 degrees (Temp will depend on how cold your remaining juice is) you can empty this into the Primary. Then top off with remaining apple juice, aerate and pitch your yeast!!

Secondary: spices/flavorings (you can adjust potency to taste)

3/4 cup spiced rum
1/2 cup water
3 cinnamon sticks (or 2 tbs ground)
2 tbs whole cloves (or 1 tbs ground)
2 tsp nutmeg
1 tbs ground ginger
~1/4 cup brown sugar
1 tbs orange extract
3 tbs lemon juice

After primary fermentation has leveled off considerably, rack into a secondary fermenter. Then simmer spices in spiced rum and water to help extract flavors. Strain or scoop out cinnamon sticks and cloves if you used whole instead of ground. Add a little extra brown sugar to thicken the sauce before it cools. Add lemon juice and orange extract once the "flavor sauce" has cooled down. Then add it to the freshly racked secondary. (you can also put this in the secondary just prior to racking which would probably improve the mixture of spices)

 

[mgayer]

Remember you don't need to pasturize if you use Campden. Pasturizing is to help kill the wild stuff. The reason I get cider instead of juice is because it is not pasturized. Same goes for the Honey I get.

Glad to hear the Coopers being used. Great kick isn't it! With the berries in there I would bet it will be done with fermentation in 3 weeks or less.

 

[simplecj]

Glad to hear the Coopers being used. Great kick isn't it! With the berries in there I would bet it will be done with fermentation in 3 weeks or less.

The berry pulp along with the extremely vigorous fermentation from the Cooper's Yeast has lead to a minor eruption!!! Fortunately I had suspicions that this could happen and had already placed the 3 gal carboy inside a bucket. Now I'm just wondering when it's going to settle down enough to keep the airlock clean!

So, yes I would definitely agree this yeast packs a punch!! I might need to leave more headroom when I do the cider and just top it off when it chills out a bit.

 

[saskman]

I use this brown sugar for jerky I want to try it out on my next batch of cider.
Rogers Demerara Sugar is a brown sugar with larger golden crystals and a rich, almost spicy taste. It dissolves slowly and adds a tantalizing crunch. Demerara gives a special taste to cappuccinos, espresso and your favourite herbal tea. It's also the perfect choice for cereals, oatmeal, crunchy granola, candied nuts, streusel topping and brandied peaches. Go wild!

 

[simplecj]

I use this brown sugar for jerky I want to try it out on my next batch of cider.
Rogers Demerara Sugar is a brown sugar with larger golden crystals and a rich, almost spicy taste. It dissolves slowly and adds a tantalizing crunch. Demerara gives a special taste to cappuccinos, espresso and your favourite herbal tea. It's also the perfect choice for cereals, oatmeal, crunchy granola, candied nuts, streusel topping and brandied peaches. Go wild!

Wow, that almost sounded like a commercial....

 

[saskman]

I copy/pasted straight from the Rogers website.

 

[simplecj]

I copy/pasted straight from the Rogers website.

I figured. It sounds like some tasty stuff, definitely potential for cider! I used the dark brown cane sugar rather than regular brown sugar. Not sure exactly what the difference is, but I think it's going to give my cider that deeper flavor to compliment the spices!

Can't wait to make some grog when this stuff is done! Patience is hard sometimes...

 

[saskman]

yah Im going through the same think both my first batch of beer and my first batch of cider are both in the fermentation stage right now, I had to break down and pick up some beer from the liquor board store