New to cider brewing

[1bottlerocket]

Hello all,
I am new to making cider and just got my first batch going. I made a rookie mistake of adding campden and yeast at the same time. Ooops! but I am guessing I can re-pitch and get back on track.

I will be sure to keep you posted on how my first time attempt progresses.

 

[NyQuil]

Yeah, give the cider 24 hours and then repitch with new yeast.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Update: I went to pitch the yeast again and when I woke up this morning the air lock was bubbling away like crazy. I guess I don't need to re-pitch now.

The airlock is bubbling away quite profusely so I am going to wait a couple of days and then take another gravity reading.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I have another question. How often should I check the gravity during fermentation?

Is it important to lift the lid to get an air change or should I just let it bubble away?

I have read arguments for both sides but wanted to get some opinions from people with more experience than myself.
Thanks!

 

[CMcPherson]

Every time that you do any maintenance on your cider you add the chance that you may contaminate it.
If your're careful though, it will be okay.
Do you plan on discarding the test sample or try to add it back?
Discarding (drinking) your sample will deplete your batch pretty quickly if you check too often.
Unless you are trying to stop the fermentation before it goes dry, I'd personally try to wait at least a week between sample taking.

I like to do my primary fermentation in open buckets with screw on lids. I lift the lid several times a day and stir vigorously to get rid of as much CO2 as I can.
After about a week, I put the batch under an airlock.
You could periodically just remove your stopper and give the container a good shake to release as much CO2 as you can.
You will get just as many opinions arguing against doing this.

 

[laredo7mm]

...I like to do my primary fermentation in open buckets with screw on lids. I lift the lid several times a day and stir vigorously to get rid of as much CO2 as I can.
After about a week, I put the batch under an airlock.
You could periodically just remove your stopper and give the container a good shake to release as much CO2 as you can.
You will get just as many opinions arguing against doing this.

What are your arguments for doing that?

 

[sashurlow]

Did you use actual pressed cider from apples from the fall or did you use store bought cider? If you have fresh pressed cider, you might have a natural yeast that is not a bad thing. I've accidentally used natural yeast with good luck. Heck, my cider from this year might have natural yeast in it.

 

[CMcPherson]

What are your arguments for doing that?

The beginning stages of fermentation benefit from vigorous off-gassing of CO2 as well as injection of O2.

 

[laredo7mm]

The beginning stages of fermentation benefit from vigorous off-gassing of CO2 as well as injection of O2.

Hmmm, to each their own

 

[1bottlerocket]

Did you use actual pressed cider from apples from the fall or did you use store bought cider? If you have fresh pressed cider, you might have a natural yeast that is not a bad thing. I've accidentally used natural yeast with good luck. Heck, my cider from this year might have natural yeast in it.

I used fresh pressed apples from a farm. I added campden tablets initially so I think that may have knocked out the wild yeast. It sat inactive for about 36 hours or so and then the airlock began bubbling like crazy.

I have gently agitated it a few times but not much more than that. It is still bubbling strong.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Every time that you do any maintenance on your cider you add the chance that you may contaminate it.
If your're careful though, it will be okay.
Do you plan on discarding the test sample or try to add it back?

The plan is to use a wine thief (I got the idea from reading here) and adding back in.

I'd personally try to wait at least a week between sample taking.

I think I will do that.

I like to do my primary fermentation in open buckets with screw on lids. I lift the lid several times a day and stir vigorously to get rid of as much CO2 as I can.
After about a week, I put the batch under an airlock.
You could periodically just remove your stopper and give the container a good shake to release as much CO2 as you can.
You will get just as many opinions arguing against doing this.

As this is my first batch I am trying to stay as clean as possible and put it directly under an air lock. I may open after a week and give it a shake.

Thanks!!!

 

[CMcPherson]

Hmmm, to each their own

NO... my way or the highway!

Seriously though... several knowledgeable sources here and elsewhere have explained to me the importance of O2 for yeast health.
Along with knowing that CO2 in high concentrations inhibits yeast health, I've decided to use the open primary method.

 

[sashurlow]

I used fresh pressed apples from a farm. I added campden tablets initially so I think that may have knocked out the wild yeast. It sat inactive for about 36 hours or so and then the airlock began bubbling like crazy.

I have used campden before and still had wild yeast grow. Campden does not kill everything. Strong yeasts might survive the treatment. I have not had one bad batch of wild yeast so you might be lucky. Or you might have one nasty critter that will kill your brew. Bird Flu could be nothing compared to what you have in there . If it pops the cork off and walks away, just don't admit that you ended the world and no one will know. You are probably OK with whats in there, however. Let it go and see what happens. Consider that no one added yeast for centuries and it worked out just fine.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I am hoping for lucky. Since this is my first batch I am trying to play it straight, as it were. Hopefully, it turns out nice. The plan is to let it sit for about 4 months before drinking.

 

[laredo7mm]

NO... my way or the highway!

Seriously though... several knowledgeable sources here and elsewhere have explained to me the importance of O2 for yeast health.
Along with knowing that CO2 in high concentrations inhibits yeast health, I've decided to use the open primary method.

I can understand that but I guess I view it differently for cider since I want to stop fermentation before it is complete to retain some sweetness. I kind of want yeast that are a bit tired and unhealthy so it is easier to get them to stop. I think you mentioned keeving before. The whole point of that process is to produce a nutrient deficient juice for the yeast to live in so they stop early on their own and residual sweetness is left.

If I was concerned about yeast health in cider and I was making a dry cider, I would be more apt to use a proper sized yeast starter, use yeast nutrients, oxygenate the juice before pitching the yeast, and ferment at the yeast's optimal temperature as opposed to using an open primary and stirring.

The only thing I do for cider is hydrate the yeast before pitching and use pectic enzyme to get the solids to precipitate out. And I only hydrate the yeast because it says so on the back of the Nottingham package.

Now for beer, yes, I typically do all of that yeast work to get a healthy pitch, but I still don't open my primary and stir my beer a couple times a day.

 

[CMcPherson]

Ah... I see your point.
You're not saying that my process is wrong, rather just not optimal for stalling a fermentation.
I am in fact hell bent on consistently preserving natural fruit sugar in my cider.
It's still my understanding that unhealthy yeast will impart off flavors though.
For the time being at least, I will continue to keep a healthy yeast and rely on nutrient deficient juice, slow fermentation and multiple racking to achieve a stalled fermentation.
I reserve the right to completely change my mind as I become more experienced.

 

[1bottlerocket]

My curiosity got the better of me today so I opened up the fermenting bucket to check the gravity, give it a stir, and taste a sample. I sterilized everything and then pulled the lid.

The gravity measured 1010, which is down from the OG of 1050.

The color has significantly lightened up too. I gave it a stir and there is still visible fermenting going on in the bucket, albeit much slower than when it first started.

The cider is significantly more dry than when I began. I added powdered tannin, which I could taste and it was much more acidic/dry, virtually all sweetness has disappeared. I didn't bother to check the ph.

I am definitely going to sweeten it up a touch when fermenting is finished. I prefer a dry cider but a touch of sweetness to soften it up a bit.

I am not sure if I am able to get canned concentrated apple juice here but I am going to check. What are some other non-fermenting sweetening options?

Thanks again!

 

[CMcPherson]

Some use Saccharin based sweeteners.
Stevia is another one that gets used.
Lactose is also recommended.

 

[Maylar]

Canned concentrate is fermentable. If I need an unfermentable sugar I'll use Xylitol, which does not leave an aftertaste like artificial sweeteners do.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Yeah--I read up on sweetening bottled cider today. It seems like a hassle unless you really know what you're doing and even then it seems like you really have to pay attention through the whole process.

I have an artificial sweetener that came with my kit I am going to try and see how that goes.

 

[CMcPherson]

The "hassle" come in when you're using fermentable sugar because you have to account for continued fermentation.
Otherwise, you're just adding your non-fermentable sugar to your own taste.

 

[Jbones]

The "hassle" come in when you're using fermentable sugar because you have to account for continued fermentation.
Otherwise, you're just adding your non-fermentable sugar to your own taste.

What sweetener would you recommend CM? Or none at all?

 

[CMcPherson]

If you're looking for a non-fermentable sweetener, take Mylars suggestion.
I'm not familiar with it but I've grown to rely on his advice.

 

[bernardsmith]

what home wine makers routinely do is stabilize their wines and then add whatever sweetener they wish - because without yeast (the stabilization process ) there is nothing in the wine to eat the added sugar. To stabilize you need to
1. make sure that there are very few yeast cells in the cider. You do this by a) allowing the cider to age b) racking the cider every couple of months (so reducing the number of yeast cells c) perhaps cold crashing the cider to force the yeast to drop out of suspension - and again racking the cider off the lees. Then when the gravity (density) of the cider has been absolutely stable over several days you add a mixture of K-meta and K-sorbate. The K-meta (through its production of SO2) will knock out any straggling yeast cells and the K-sorbate will prevent those cells from reproducing. The remaining yeast then die out. You can then add fermentable sugar to your heart's content.
An alternative solution is to filter your cider through sterile filters. Sterile filters are filters whose weave is tighter than the size of the yeast cells so the filters hold back the yeast and any other particles of that size (and larger).. The challenge with filtering is, of course, that your cider needs to be absolutely clear because if there are particles of fruit or pectins and the like in the cider they will quickly block the flow and you will be constantly cleaning your filter... sterile filter pads are woven to block material larger than 0.45 microns and a yeast cell is about 5 microns

 

[CMcPherson]

My curiosity got the better of me today..

I must admit... a big reason that I like the open fermentation method is that I get to play with my cider. Now I'm geeking out over vinegar.
I do the same thing with my honey hives. Nothing more fun to me than lighting a smoker (or two ) and looking for the queen.
My BBQ on the other hand... "If you lookin, ya'int cookin".

 

[1bottlerocket]

My BBQ on the other hand... "If you lookin, ya'int cookin".

You got that right, brother!

 

[1bottlerocket]

Canned concentrate is fermentable. If I need an unfermentable sugar I'll use Xylitol, which does not leave an aftertaste like artificial sweeteners do.

I tried some birch xylitol tonight and it is pretty tasty. I think I am going to give that a whirl. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[MarkKF]

Canned concentrate is fermentable. If I need an unfermentable sugar I'll use Xylitol, which does not leave an aftertaste like artificial sweeteners do.

Just don't use more than 1 cup per 5 gal. I did 1/2 cup, 1 cup & 1-1/2 cup and the last one tasted a little off. Just my opinion.

 

[Maylar]

My standard dose is 3 TBSP per gallon. That's about equivalent to 1.012.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I bottled my cider today. What a task!

The final gravity was about 0.990-0.980, which is far lower than I had anticipated. I sampled a glass while adjusting the sweetness level and got pretty buzzed after awhile. It is more dry than I had hoped but hopefully this will clear up after some bottle conditioning.

According to the Brewer's Friend ABV Calculator the ABV is 7.9-9.2% which is about double of where I hoped to end up.

I made a simple syrup of 1c Birch Xyilitol to water and added this to 19l after racking. I then added finings to aid in clearing it up.

After letting it sit I primed individual 0.5l bottles with 2ml Maple Syrup. I now having it sitting in our bedroom and will move it to the cellar after a few days.

I think next time I will skip adding tannins or greatly reduce then and perhaps skip the yeast nutrient too. I am planning on purchasing a cider concentrate kit from Love Brewing in the UK and trying out White Labs English Cider yeast.

The plan is to let it bottle condition for about 2-3 months before sampling again to see where it is with regards to flavor.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I have a another question. I see a lot of yeast settling in the bottles, due to my rush to get it out of the buckets. Is it possible or advisable to re-bottle, where I empty the filled and primed bottles back into a bucket, let it sit and then try again? Should I just let it sit and move on and learn from my mistake?

 

[flyfishnevada]

I have a another question. I see a lot of yeast settling in the bottles, due to my rush to get it out of the buckets. Is it possible or advisable to re-bottle, where I empty the filled and primed bottles back into a bucket, let it sit and then try again? Should I just let it sit and move on and learn from my mistake?

I'd move on. All that moving around is just more chances to introduce bacteria. Yeast won't kill you and if the cider is cloudy, it's cloudy.

How did you bottle? Did you use a racking cane or a bucket? You'll always get a bit of yeast in your bottles unless you run some sort of filter but if you have a lot, you probably need to try another bottling method or just be more careful.

 

[Maylar]

Let it ride. Leave an inch in the bottles when you pour. It happens to all of us.

 

[1bottlerocket]

I'd move on. All that moving around is just more chances to introduce bacteria. Yeast won't kill you and if the cider is cloudy, it's cloudy.

How did you bottle? Did you use a racking cane or a bucket? You'll always get a bit of yeast in your bottles unless you run some sort of filter but if you have a lot, you probably need to try another bottling method or just be more careful.

Thanks, I never thought of moving it around too much and introducing bacteria.

I used a racking cane to bottle. I have limited free time due to an active 2-year old running around and a new born. I was considering letting it sit but just could not imagine the next time I would be able to devote some time to doing it properly, thus the rush to get to bottle.

In retrospect, I think it would have been better to let it sit for an extended period of time to avoid all the yeast in the bottles. I also tipped the bucket towards the end to get as much cider as possible out. Now that was silly!!!

The bottles are sitting in the cellar now and there is a lot of visible yeast in the bottoms. Some more than others! Oops.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Let it ride. Leave an inch in the bottles when you pour. It happens to all of us.

Probably best to move on. Thanks!

 

[Maylar]

In retrospect, I think it would have been better to let it sit for an extended period of time to avoid all the yeast in the bottles. I also tipped the bucket towards the end to get as much cider as possible out. Now that was silly!!!

Lol. It's tempting as hell to get greedy. BTDT. Lesson learned.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Ha! Yes. Not really thinking about what I was doing, I went ahead and thought, "Now how am I supposed to get the rest of this in the bottle?" Uhh...you're not.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Update: I just couldn't wait and cracked open a bottle of my first cider after 5 days of resting in the cellar.

It cleared very nicely, despite all the yeast in the bottom of the bottles. While the carbonation is a bit lower than I was hoping, it may develop over time. It has a nice mouth feel.

There is a slight bit of a sulfer-y/ carbon dioxide smell but I am hoping this fades too after some bottle conditioning. Due to the high alcohol content it may have killed off most of the yeast, or I just did not prime enough, I am not sure yet.

I think the sweetening using Xylitol helped a lot to get rid of that sour, acidic flavor after racking. This has me excited for the next batch!

The plan is to use White Labs English Cider and White Labs Sweet Mead yeasts.

 

[Maylar]

You may have skimped on the priming sugar. 2 ml of maple syrup in 0.5L of cider isn't much. Taste another one in 2 weeks and see if you get more carbonation.

 

[1bottlerocket]

Yes, I probably skimped on the priming sugar. I used Northern Brewing's calculator and selected an Imperil stout style, which is about 1.8 volumes of CO2. I am going to check again in a couple of weeks.