New to brewing, and starting with all electric build...

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alha

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Hi, I have been interested in brewing my own beer for a 4-5 years now, and have purchased a number of items to start, carboys, a couple 5-6 gallon kegs, a kit to start brewing with from my local brewstore, even made 2 reverse flow chillers out of spools of copper tubing and garden hoses. I have slowly been collecting things for the day I have the time to devote to this new hobby. One thing that I became very interested in when I went to the 2010 AHA National Homebrewers Conference here in Minneapolis was a system to brew beer with, and I saw on display a Brewmagic VMS350. As I am a gadget geek and an appliance repairman to boot, this system really impressed me, to say the least. I knew it was the bomb, but at $6000+, there was no way I would be able to afford it at this time, though it did get my mind going on a BMO (build my own) version of it. One thing I wasn't too excited about was that it was gas powered. I prefer electrical, and decided that my system was going to be all electric instead of gas.

I have been quite impressed with induction cook-tops for a while now, they are pretty amazing in the kitchen, and I figured I would go this way with my setup, if I could find some at the right price. Well, I ended up coming across one that I think would work out quite well for my system. It is a Thermador CIT151DS, a 15" multi-element, up to 3600 watts. It takes a 20A circuit, but not sure if it draws that much when running, probably around 12-14 at full load. I think that a couple 50A circuits will handle the whole system easily. I ended up purchasing 4 of them at a Very Good price, 3 for the system and one as a spare, just in case.

When I started looking at making my my clone of their system, I went their site to examine how they set theirs up, and one thing I found (that is no longer up on their site) was a dimensioned drawing of the stand. I ended up copying the .jpg to my computer for future reference. I plan on building mine out of 304 or 306 SS tubing, depending on what I can find for a "reasonable" price, as I figure I will need 30-35 linear feet of 1 1/2 or 2" square tubing, and mimicking their design pretty closely. I will have to modify the dimensions slightly to be able to hold the 3 electric heating systems, but overall it will be close. One thing I do plan on doing is adding a 5500W element to each pot to use as needed, to assist with bringing the product up to temp as rapidly as possible, and to help hold the temp if the induction element for some reason can't keep up.

I really appreciate the information available here on the forum, I have seen a number of very cool builds, and it is inspiring me to get off my duff and actually start this project. There is a lot to building a semi-automatic system, and there are times I wonder what I have gotten myself into, but since I have purchased over 1/3 of the materials, it's pretty much too late to turn back now. I still believe I will be $1000's below the VMS350 when I am done, plus I will know it inside and out, not to mention I'll have the satisfaction of knowing it was built right. I know I still have a lot of research to do, (controls, pots, tubing, ventilation, etc, etc) but just wanted to say hi and thanks to all here that have contributed to the critical mass of knowledge. We Newbs greatly appreciate it!
 
Wow, cool idea, very gutsy to go for something like that right out of the chute. Def are aiming pretty high for your 1st build. Best of luck on it, definitely do a lot of reading, there's a ton of info here to guide you, and feel free to ask questions, ppl here are happy to lend a hand, and to share their opinions. Oh, and Welcome to the forum! ;)
 
Did you just post and then congratulate / welcome yourself? I'm confused... but either way, good luck to you (you two?)

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That' funny as hell :drunk: I do that all the time to myself.

"Hey self, want a beer?
Sure self, Ill take one!
Damn this is good stuff, you make it?
I sure did, have another one.
Ok, I will. "

Makes for a long night....
 
LOL yeah I did, it was mostly as a joke, since I posted it at 8am, and by 9pm had 0 responses and 1 view (mine) I thought for fun I'd post the 2nd one. :D

Seriously, thanks and I'm looking forward to moving forward with this, though it will probably be in fits & starts. Life has a funny way of interfering with fun, but whaddaya gonna do? I have spent some more time reading up on other ppls electric setups, and have come to realize that no one has had it easy or quick in their builds, so if it takes me all winter (or longer) I won't feel bad. It is being done for fun not as a job, so I can't expect to knock it out in a week or 2. Not that I would be able to acquire all the knowledge and expertise I'm going to need to successfully build it in that short of time anyways, not to mention all the part$ I still need to acquire. One thing I will have to try to remember is to take some pics along the way to document my progress.

I do have a couple basic questions, first of which is I noticed in someones build thread that the question was asked if they are going to build it one of 2 ways, I think it was HERMS and some other acronym, but I don't remember. Could someone plz explain what those 2 terms mean, what the differences are in the setup of the system, if one system can accommodate both styles, why someone would go one way or the other, and is one "better" than the other or is it a Ford vs. Chevy thing? Thanks guys!
 
LOL yeah I did, it was mostly as a joke, since I posted it at 8am, and by 9pm had 0 responses and 1 view (mine) I thought for fun I'd post the 2nd one. :D

Or... 6 minutes apart... we're not THAT fast...

The two terms you're likely looking for are HERMS and RIMS. Check out the glossary or Wiki for all kinds of good information on the two. As far as I can imagine, they are not interchangeable nor would you want them to be.

Welcome, btw.
 
I know it looked like it, but it was actually 12 hrs, 12-16-2012, 08:53 AM to 12-16-2012, 08:59 PM ;) Regardless, thanks! I will check them out. I read a couple more build threads last night, man you guys do some fine work. Hope mine turns out half as nice as those.
 
Damn, I stand corrected on my ribbing. 30 lashes will be administered.

Yours will turn out great. You already have the first steps down - accept that it will take longer and cost more than you planned. From there, it's easy!
 
I do have a couple basic questions, first of which is I noticed in someones build thread that the question was asked if they are going to build it one of 2 ways, I think it was HERMS and some other acronym, but I don't remember. Could someone plz explain what those 2 terms mean, what the differences are in the setup of the system, if one system can accommodate both styles, why someone would go one way or the other, and is one "better" than the other or is it a Ford vs. Chevy thing? Thanks guys!

They are very similar, but the big difference is that HERMS systems never have the mash comet into direct contact with the heat source. RIMS systems do.

Both accomplish the same goal, but your choice of system will strongly influence your total system design (mainly how complicated your HLT is)
 
Good luck on the build. PJ is an invaluable asset to this site when it comes to electrical drawing and he will take the time to give you a call and ansawer questions as well
 
Since you have never brewed before your your best investment might be a copy of Palmer's "How to Brew" for $10.

It sounds like you have most of the equipment for some full boil extract batches. Get a 10 gallon stock pot and start testing your cooktop with an existing stove or dryer 220v outlet. This simple setup you should be able to determine the max boil volume, time from tap water temp to boiling, can the cooktop be automated with a PID or other temp control, etc. Also after a couple batches you can transition to all grain with minimal additional equipment by using BIAB or a cooler MLT. You will have a much better idea how you want to scale or automate your brewing process and what equipment will be required.

For the brewstand, steel is common for direct fire but electric is much more flexible. For example, you could get a few ikea cabinets and a laminate counter top for about $300 and flush mount your cooktops.

You also might find that upgrading your main panel to add multiple 220 @ 50amp GFCIs and running wiring could cost $1000's. Most people are using a single 220v 30 amp run for a full electric setup or 50 amps to run to vessels simultaneously for faster brewing or back to back batches.
 
@jCOSbrew Good advice, thanks. One thing I haven't yet bought but will be soon is the brewpots. I was looking at Blickmans 15 gal pots, as they are 15.7" and should fit on the cooktops just about perfect. The 20 gal are 17.x, not sure if they would fit or not, but I've read that 20 gal's are better for making 10 gals of finished beer, so 2-5 gallon kegs. The 15 seems to be an odd size, but I may have to run with it because of the cooktop limitations. Also have to be sure they are magnetic so they'll work with the induction cooktop. It would be a bummer to order them and then find out the 1st time I went to use them they don't work!

Just last nite I purchased and downloaded The Complete Guide to Building Your Home Brewery (c) TheElectricBrewery.com.pdf, and started going thru it. These systems certainly aren't simple, that's for sure. As for power, I have a 120 amp subpanel in the basement right next to where I plan on building it, so power isn't an issue for me. In fact, I expect to receive a 60 amp spa panel from HD, should be here on Thurs. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202276011&R=202276011 This way I can run 2 30 amp circuits off of it if needed. This is starting to get fun!

They are very similar, but the big difference is that HERMS systems never have the mash comet into direct contact with the heat source. RIMS systems do.

Both accomplish the same goal, but your choice of system will strongly influence your total system design (mainly how complicated your HLT is)

Seedly, thanks for the reply. I know this is probably an impossible question, but is one "better" than the other, or are they both as good, just one way is better for brewing some beers and the other is better for other types? It seems that this is a pretty basic question that needs to be settled before purchasing much more in the way of brewing supplies for the build. I'd rather avoid making an expensive mistake. Are there any other basic ground level questions such as this one that I need to have answered before I get into the nuts and bolts of the build? I'd Really like to avoid those facepalm moments if at all possible.
 
Your cooktops might be underpowered for 10 gallon batches. Most people are using a 5500w element in the kettles. It might take an hour to heat water to strike temp, etc.

You can get get a 15 gal AL kettle for $75 and make a couple batches of beer and test the capability of the cooktop.

Keep in mind that the electric setup and bilchman kettles will not improve the beer. Fermentation temp control, yeast starters, and sanitation however are important.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention that I have purchased 3 of those 5500w elements to use as a booster for each pot, giving a potential of about 9100 watts per. About the cooktop, if the brewpot material isn't magnetic, it won't heat on an Induction cooktop. That is one concern, as unless the AL pot is designed to be induction compatible, it will just sit there. Do you have any bilchman kettles? If you do, could you do me a favor and put a magnet on the bottom of one to see if it sticks? If it doesn't, I guess I will stop looking at those as an option.
 
Wow sounds like too much power.

The bilchman kettles are triclad SS with and AL. Consider ditching the cooktop since it doesn't work with SS or AL.
 
Gaaahh! I've got 4 of them, and they weren't cheap, sadly. Now the hunt is on for a large pot that is magnetic, the proper diameter, and would work well for beer brewing. Well, as BadNewsBrewery said earlier, "You already have the first steps down - accept that it will take longer and cost more than you planned. From there, it's easy!" I'll keep telling myself that one... ;)


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Seedly, thanks for the reply. I know this is probably an impossible question, but is one "better" than the other, or are they both as good, just one way is better for brewing some beers and the other is better for other types? It seems that this is a pretty basic question that needs to be settled before purchasing much more in the way of brewing supplies for the build. I'd rather avoid making an expensive mistake. Are there any other basic ground level questions such as this one that I need to have answered before I get into the nuts and bolts of the build? I'd Really like to avoid those facepalm moments if at all possible.

I would be the wrong person to ask! Ive been researching an e-brew build, but I dont have that answer yet. Im thinking I will go with a RIMS system though as I like the fact that the temp of the mash is taken immediately after the heating element (usually) and I feel like it might give me better control.
 
If you have the elements, ditch the inductive cooktops. Sell them on eBay and put the money toward your pots. I use a 2500w in the rims and a 5500w in the boil kettle. Common practice and easy to control. I also use a RIMs setup with a BCS for control.

Beside this forum, theelectricbrewery.com was a huge source of knowledge. I still reference for ideas and questions. For someone building and selling control panels, it's mighty nice how he details his system so you can build your own. Not many companies would do that. Thanks Kal!
 
Guys, thanks for the thoughts. I would like to do it with those cooktops if possible, I like a challenge. I'm not a fool and if it turns out to be unworkable, I will abandon using them, but I'm not there yet. Stubborn Norwegian.. lol Well, I will check out the electric brewery site out as well, I bet they have a lot of excellent info. I have a couple other ideas up my sleeve for this system, like a custom built wort chiller using the reverse flow cooler I made along with a freezer system I'm throwing together with some spare appliance parts I have laying around, non-toxic anti-freeze and a pump, and who knows what else. I heard from the people at my local brew supply store that you can't cool down too quickly, so I figure it would be interesting to see just how fast I can dump 100 or more degrees out. Should be challenging. Starting the initial clearing out of the area this morning, but we'll have to see what the better half has in store for me today to see how far along I can get.

Seedly, I guess we're both still deciding what to do, which way to go. Well, I have a ton of research to do before I get too far along with this process, and wish you the best of luck in your build. I know I'll need it with mine! ;)
 
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