New to BIAB...Need help

[jmyers04]

It seems to me recently I have done a BIAB cream ale and somewhere in the process due to either the mash temp, yeast pitch or ferment temp or boil I have had a DMS problem. First beer that this has happened on. This was my third BIAB batch with a year or so worth of experience with extract brewing. So my questions are this.....

1. If I stick to the adage of dark beers 155-158
Medium body beers 153-156
Light beers from 148-152..................will I be ok?
If this isn't a good formula what is a better way?

2. How do you decide how long to mash? First two BIAB batches we did the same IPA recipe to get it down and did a 90 min mash and 60 min boil. No problems on either of those brews.

3. Leads to my next question is there any time where a 60 min boil isn't enough? How do you decide how long to boil?

Thanks in advance...

 

[RedlegEd]

It seems to me recently I have done a BIAB cream ale and somewhere in the process due to either the mash temp, yeast pitch or ferment temp or boil I have had a DMS problem. First beer that this has happened on. This was my third BIAB batch with a year or so worth of experience with extract brewing. So my questions are this.....

1. If I stick to the adage of dark beers 155-158
Medium body beers 153-156
Light beers from 148-152..................will I be ok?
If this isn't a good formula what is a better way?

2. How do you decide how long to mash? First two BIAB batches we did the same IPA recipe to get it down and did a 90 min mash and 60 min boil. No problems on either of those brews.

3. Leads to my next question is there any time where a 60 min boil isn't enough? How do you decide how long to boil?

Thanks in advance...

Hi. You've not provided any real information for review (i.e. recipe, process, etc.,) but I'd recommend you read this article by Scott Janish on DMS. It's a little long and detailed, but should point you in the right direction. Hope this helps.
Ed

 

[jmyers04]

Well, I didn't post the recipe because I figured some of these are generic mash questions. What type of recipes require a longer or shorter mash? How long do you boil...etc. But if it helps here is what I did.


4lbs Pilsner
3lbs Pale malt
1 lb flaked corn
10 oz. carapils

Mashed at 155.....by the end of the mash temp had dropped to 152 or so. 60 min boil. Only used very little hops as to this was a cream ale. A drop at 60 ,30 ,10 min...

Cooled to around 80F (which is a problem for sure) we had lost our digital thermometer and used a BBQ one and it was a bad idea for sure. We have since gotten a new thermometer so we will be better of on that. Pitched around 80F maybe high 70'sF by the time it got transferred to the fermenting bucket.

Us-05 yeast. After a little over a week the FG reading was at 1.020.....seems a bit high as we have used us05 before and it get to around 1.010 or so. Now we have the FG problem and a weird taste problem....which Yooper has identified probably being DMS on a thread I posted yesterday.

Being new to all grain BIAB, I am pretty lost as to where to go from here.....frustrated to say the least. I have a friend that does BIAB and we followed his advice and it seems to not be what we needed.

 

[jmyers04]

It seemed like the wort chiller had been running forever....it stayed on that 80 for a long time...that is why we decided to kill it and move to the fermenter (just thought that the thermo reading wasn't very good and thought it had to be lower....but that is what I read, wrong or right)

 

[zgja2]

Please describe the off flavor. I can not be sure but i suspect it is not DMS. Pitching US 05 at 80F will make some horrific flavors.

Did you control fermentation temps somehow?

 

[RedlegEd]

Well, I didn't post the recipe because I figured some of these are generic mash questions. What type of recipes require a longer or shorter mash? How long do you boil...etc. But if it helps here is what I did.


4lbs Pilsner
3lbs Pale malt
1 lb flaked corn
10 oz. carapils

Mashed at 155.....by the end of the mash temp had dropped to 152 or so. 60 min boil. Only used very little hops as to this was a cream ale. A drop at 60 ,30 ,10 min...

Cooled to around 80F (which is a problem for sure) we had lost our digital thermometer and used a BBQ one and it was a bad idea for sure. We have since gotten a new thermometer so we will be better of on that. Pitched around 80F maybe high 70'sF by the time it got transferred to the fermenting bucket.

Us-05 yeast. After a little over a week the FG reading was at 1.020.....seems a bit high as we have used us05 before and it get to around 1.010 or so. Now we have the FG problem and a weird taste problem....which Yooper has identified probably being DMS on a thread I posted yesterday.

Being new to all grain BIAB, I am pretty lost as to where to go from here.....frustrated to say the least. I have a friend that does BIAB and we followed his advice and it seems to not be what we needed.

Pilsner and flaked corn can definitely have an influence on DMS. For this reason, a lot of people will extend their boil of pilsner rich grists to 90+ minutes. There is, however, a Brulosophy exbeeriment that pooh-poohs the extended boil philosophy. As for the US-05, you're right, 1.020 is pretty high for that yeast. Please don't be too disappointed with BIAB. It's a great method for brewing good beer. If you like lighter beers, I suggest you try Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde to see if you still have the same problem. Ed


ETA: @zgja2 is correct. US-05 tastes best when fermented in the 60's and low 70s.

 

[jmyers04]

Oh, I will keep trying. I love brewing and really want to get this BIAB all grain down. I just have read so much information and been told so many different things I am getting confused and frustrated. Like the fact that it is better to up the boil with pilsner in it to 90. never seen that before.

 

[jmyers04]

The off flavor is weird..." super grainy" "Corn-ish" just different than anything ive ever tasted.

 

[jmyers04]

Well low 70's is the goal.....house is set on 70 and no way of controlling temp. So ferm may kick it up a little higher but we have never had problems before with us05

 

[zgja2]

Well low 70's is the goal.....house is set on 70 and no way of controlling temp. So ferm may kick it up a little higher but we have never had problems before with us05

I have never brewed with corn so i can not speak to the flavor that adds. Maybe confusing that with DMS.

I can tell you for certain that pitching at 80 (event with the house at 70) is going to get ferm temps above 80. At least initially. US-05 at that temp throws some pretty awful stuff.

Fermentation temp control is is one of the best investments you can make in your process. I highly suggest getting a fridge or freezer and a temp controller.

 

[kh54s10]

Well low 70's is the goal.....house is set on 70 and no way of controlling temp. So ferm may kick it up a little higher but we have never had problems before with us05

Low 70s is not cool enough. If the house is 70 your wort is getting much warmer during fermentation. I suspect that your other fermentations were during cooler weather.

Look up swamp cooler. You really need to keep US05 under 70 at all times. Mid sixties would be better.

If you boiled without a lid, I think the fermentation temperature is your problem and not DMS. Even with the pilsner malt, and 60 minute boil, almost all would have been steamed out. With an all pilsner base malt recipe you would want to boil for 90 minutes. But still with the lid off you should not get that much of a DMS flavor.

 

[BigJoeBrew]

It seems to me recently I have done a BIAB cream ale and somewhere in the process due to either the mash temp, yeast pitch or ferment temp or boil I have had a DMS problem. First beer that this has happened on. This was my third BIAB batch with a year or so worth of experience with extract brewing. So my questions are this.....

1. If I stick to the adage of dark beers 155-158
Medium body beers 153-156
Light beers from 148-152..................will I be ok?
If this isn't a good formula what is a better way?

2. How do you decide how long to mash? First two BIAB batches we did the same IPA recipe to get it down and did a 90 min mash and 60 min boil. No problems on either of those brews.

3. Leads to my next question is there any time where a 60 min boil isn't enough? How do you decide how long to boil?

Thanks in advance...

1. All I got for you is high mash lends to sweeter finish, lower mash lend to drier finish.

2. I tend to mash the standard 60 minutes, but many use iodine to test for conversion. I need to get some. 90 or 60, whichever is fine as long as things are converted.

3. IMO, the only time a longer than 60 minute boil could be needed is if you need to boil longer to hit your gravity number. A refractometer comes in great here. Also, you can use it to take a sample of your mash to see the gravity which is another sign of your grains conversion.

Cooling your wort
Here is what I do and I try to be simple and cheap
1. Use your immersion chiller with ground water until about 100 degrees.

2. I purchased a pond pump https://www.harborfreight.com/158-gph-submersible-fountain-pump-63315.html
I use this in a big tote full of ice and water to bring the temp down to 70 or in the 60's

Hope this helps a little bit.

 

[applescrap]

It seems to me recently I have done a BIAB cream ale and somewhere in the process due to either the mash temp, yeast pitch or ferment temp or boil I have had a DMS problem. First beer that this has happened on. This was my third BIAB batch with a year or so worth of experience with extract brewing. So my questions are this.....

1. If I stick to the adage of dark beers 155-158
Medium body beers 153-156
Light beers from 148-152..................will I be ok?
If this isn't a good formula what is a better way?

2. How do you decide how long to mash? First two BIAB batches we did the same IPA recipe to get it down and did a 90 min mash and 60 min boil. No problems on either of those brews.

3. Leads to my next question is there any time where a 60 min boil isn't enough? How do you decide how long to boil?

Thanks in advance...

Most will disagree with me but mash temp in the ranges you are talking dont matter amd even if they did would not taste off, just different. I mash 45 minutes, 60 should be fine and is standard. Thats not it. Some people hold onto a theory that a 90-minute boil is necessary for making sure there is no DMS in pilsner malt. If you boiled for 60 minutes you should be fine. I use a 45-minute boil for everything. That being said I think a long boil does some other nice things to beer and I keep saying I'm going to extend back to 60 but once I start brewing it's 45 and I'm done.

Could the corn flavor be from the 11.6 % of the recipe that is corn? Were the grains really old, was everything really old? It almost sounds like you got bad grains and or hops. Also are you sure you didn't kill the yeast throwing it in to hot. Are your gravity measurements solid? Did you see certain signs of fermentation? Yeast is resilient stuff and these quote-unquote off flavors from too hot of fermentation wouldn't be awful and undesirable just different, imo. One thing you could do is go back to that brew store and smell the corn in the bin.

Last how much hops did you use and what hops? What goes in the pot is what comes out ( once again many disagree with this). Anyways you put in a little bit of grain and 11 % flaked corn and if you didn't use a lot of hops then that's probably what you're tasting.

 

[applescrap]

From byo cream ale recipes page

Flaked maize option:
Replace corn sugar added in kettle (not the priming sugar) with 2.0 lbs. (0.91 kg) flaked maize. Add another 0.5 gallons (1.9 L) of water to mash to hit proper mash consistency. Flaked maize will add more corn flavor to the beer. Corn sugar is flavorless.

 

[jmyers04]

Lid was off on the boil to clarify that. I order from farmhousebrewingsupply.com, always had great luck with stuff from them. So I cannot say whether the grains are old or not. used Cascade hops....0.50 oz at 60 and at 30 and 1 oz at 10 min. I always smell the hops and they smelled just fine to me. As far as fermentation....there was airlock activity plus a krausen line that has since fallen....gravity as of a week and three days after brew it is 1.020. I also checked it at a week and it was also at 1.020.

 

[jmyers04]

Also, when I get my shipment of grains in...how do you tell if they are old or fresh? Taste or smell I assume....but what will old or new ones taste like?

 

[applescrap]

You would know if the grains were bad, they would smell and or look bad/ musty and rotted. Sounds like you put corn in and you got corn out. Perhaps corn isnt a flavor you like. Some beers actually try for dms, rolling rock, I think does that. There is very little chance your issue is dms.

 

[jmyers04]

So I have been advised to let it sit another week then check gravity. If it is still at 1.020 is it done to the point where I wont have bottle bombs? I plan on racking this onto 5 lbs of strawberries as well.

 

[jmyers04]

I still have enough ingredients to do another 5 gallon batch of cream ale. I was going to do one with strawberries and one with peaches. I am going to mash lower this time....and get a tub and use the frozen water bottle trick to keep the ferm temp lower. Will also not pitch at 80 this time due to having a new thermometer and will take it down to mid 60's before pitching then keep it in the tub with the bottles and get ferm strips for the buckets. Sucks to have such a frustrating brew but I hope to learn from these mistakes. I have a pound of flaked oats I can use in place of the flaked corn.....or maybe do half pound of each for a little less corn flavor.....I just wanted to nail the creaminess of a cream ale.

 

[zgja2]

I still have enough ingredients to do another 5 gallon batch of cream ale. I was going to do one with strawberries and one with peaches. I am going to mash lower this time....and get a tub and use the frozen water bottle trick to keep the ferm temp lower. Will also not pitch at 80 this time due to having a new thermometer and will take it down to mid 60's before pitching then keep it in the tub with the bottles and get ferm strips for the buckets. Sucks to have such a frustrating brew but I hope to learn from these mistakes. I have a pound of flaked oats I can use in place of the flaked corn.....or maybe do half pound of each for a little less corn flavor.....I just wanted to nail the creaminess of a cream ale.

Though stuff like this is frustrating, it sounds like you have a good plan. Just a heads up though. You will likely not be able to chill that low with tap water this time of year. See what temp the cold water comes out of your tap. That is the coldest you will be able to chill to. To overcome this you can either use a pre-chiller with ice water, pump to recirculate ice water. or use the swamp cooler to bring it down. Do a search and you should be able to find plenty of info on any method.

 

[jmyers04]

Can I use the chiller to get it as low as it will go....then move to the fermenter.....then move to the swamp cooler until the temp gets low enough then pitch the yeast? I of course once its in the fermenter put the lid on and airlock it....then once the temp is reached open aerate then pitch? Wasn't sure how long you could let it sit once the cool down has started before you pitch the yeast.

 

[Kharnynb]

at the very least, i would indeed use a swampcooler with maybe some frozen waterbottles to cool it down more in warmer times....

I tend to chill my wort by just putting it in the fermenter hot, then filling the cooler with cold water(our tapwater is 5 degrees celcius) and swapping it once or twice during an hour. no dms or other weird flavours yet.

 

[jmyers04]

I have a wort chiller. I was told early on that you should stir it with the chiller in there to cool it down faster? Oxidation from that or no?

 

[applescrap]

^^that myth has been debunked many times if I am correct. Yes you must stir to chill faster. Or dont and it will take 40 mins ish to chill with cheap ic. Also by whipping my last batch, chilling it in 10 minutes, it created a nice aerated foam blanket for the yeast. I dumped dry yeast on that blanket and watched it beautifully rehydrate. I should have just let it sit like that but I stirred it, put the lid on and finished.

 

[applescrap]

I'm starting to think a 2 L bottle sealed with air around it would be pretty solid. Maybe a little bit of foam around it.