New Immersion Chiller vs. Therminator

[ptakers]

I've gone back and forth on this so many times my head hurts, so I'm reaching out to the community for guidance. Having read 50+ threads on the subject, I'm still not convinced which way to go, so here goes:

Currently, I'm an all-grain brewer, 5 gallon batches, using a 8-gallon SS kettle and a 25-foot SS immersion chiller. Even though I've got pretty cold water supply, I still use a ton of water bringing down the temperature of my wort (easily fills up my large washing machine and then some).

So I've basically got 3 choices:

1. status quo,
2. Get a new 50-foot IC that's going to cool the wort down somewhat faster and waste less water, or
3. Drill a hole in my kettle, install a weldless valve kit, and get a Therminator.

Number one isn't what I want. Number two is viable only if I can chill my beer significantly quicker with 50' of tubing rather than 25'. Number three is *expensive*, especially when I have to add on the weldless kit, the drill bits, the extra tubing, etc. Not to mention cleaning.

I know I'm not the first homebrewer who's been in my position.

Thanks in advance!

 

[BendBrewer]

#3 with a 40 Plate Chiller from Keg Cowboy for 80 bucks.

Burke huh? Lake Braddock here.

 

[TheMan]

I don't know that a new immersion chiller will conserve more water. My 50 foot uses lots of water. But I do not know that it will chill significantly quicker than your current one.

Plate chillers use less water is what I'm told. I hear cleaning isn't too difficult...you just backflush it and you can bake it in the oven to sterilize it.

 

[terrapinj]

i would bet that switching from SS to copper for the IC would make a big difference as well

 

[shelly_belly]

I have a 50 ft IC and I've found I can chill 5.5 gals in 30 mins with 10 gals of H2O or 20 mins with 20 gals of H2O. So there's a trade off for what you want. At first I was conserving water but then I realized I can easily find a use for 20 gals of H2O so I go for the quicker chill now.

 

[emjay]

To provide a bit of comparison, I used my therminator for the first time last weekend. Chilled 6 gallons down to 60° in less than 5 minutes.

 

[mrbobble]

I had only one issue with my Therminator and that was Jamil's point regarding letting hop alpha acids isomerize when stuck in very hot water for a length of time.
I kind of slightly side stepped that (I think) by draining the boil kettle through a loaded Hop Rocket in a hop back configuration and then immediately through the Therminator. Any hot wort that touchest the hops is immediately passed through the therminator and alpha acid isomerization should be minimized (I think).
Other than that, chilling time on those things is wicked fast. I don't mind the clean up time. Takes very little time compared to waiting for my old IC to do it's thing.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'll be able to report back on the Rebel Brewer Chillhog 4000 after Sunday (will be the first time using it). I've had a ball valve in my 32qt kettle for some time now. LOVE having that option. I did just pick up (last weekend) a 10 gallon Blichmann kettle that will also be getting it's cherry popped on Sunday. I decided to get QD's from the start for all of this. Using silicon tubing to run between anything of temperature, or that will carry wort. Picked up a drinking water safe hose to feed the Chillhog on Sunday too. Final item would be a pump to run PBW and StarSan through the Chillhog after using it (and run StarSan through it before it's first use.

For reference, I cooled my ~5 gallon batches to pitching temp (about65F) in 8-10 minutes with a chiller built from 50' of 3/8" OD copper. 20' took it about 15-17 minutes. I expect to get under 5 minutes with the Chillhog. I'll know the temp of the wort going out from the RebelSmart on the 'wort out' side of the chiller. I typically target 65-70F there, depending on the yeast I'll be using.

 

[Rundownhouse]

Option #4: buy a $30 pond pump to recirculate ice water through your IC. Run hose water through until you get down to about 100F, maybe 5-10 minutes, then recirculate ice water to pitching temps.

 

[passedpawn]

I have run 49 all-grain batches (most were 10g) through my therminator. I've never put it in my oven.

After use (sometimes the next day), I just hold my host sprayer against one of the ports and blow it out for about 10 seconds. That's it.

I'd give my vote for the therminator (or similar plate chiller). Mine was an upgrade from an immersion chiller, which is in my attic.

 

[Chumley]

I used a 25' 3/8 copper IC and had pretty poor performance, I upgraded to 50' and the chilling capacity improved. The biggest improvement was when I started whirlpooling at the end with a pump. I can now chill ~6 gallons of wort to 65F in about 10 minutes. A little longer in the summer when the ground water temps are higher.

 

[bannonb]

I started using the Schirron small plate chiller 6-8 months ago. It rocks! I am on a well and the water is fairly cool, but I can go from my boiler to 63 degrees with a low flow in about 15 mins for a 5.5 gallon batch. I let the output water go into my grass...no waste there as I water my lawn anyway.

There may be some hop residue inside, but I backflush with hot water and PBW, get the green out, rinse then run starsan through it. I even use compressed air to store it dry-ish.

Before the plate chiller, I had a homemade counterflow chiller with copper tubing running through a garden hose. It worked fine but is huge.

Before that I had a 25' copper immersion chiller. Glad to be rid of it, won't go back.

 

[prrriiide]

Try this:

Get another IC and the proper fittings to attach a jumper hose to the outlet port. Fill your sink with ice water. Set one IC in the ice water, run the outlet hose to the inlet of your other IC that goes in the pot. Now you're icing your water before it goes into the pot.

It also helps if you set your pot in one of these full of ice water as you run the dual IC rig:

 

[mrbobble]

Actually, my plan is to do a similar thing except run the cooling water through a pump and circulate it through the coil in the ice bath, through the therminator and then back through the coil in the ice bath in a loop. That should save the most water and chill the quickest.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Try this:

Get another IC and the proper fittings to attach a jumper hose to the outlet port. Fill your sink with ice water. Set one IC in the ice water, run the outlet hose to the inlet of your other IC that goes in the pot. Now you're icing your water before it goes into the pot.

I did this for the first time and was pretty disappointed. I had a copper prechiller in an ice bucket and I don't think it made that much of a difference in the temp coming out of the prechiller. Not sure if the flow was too fast/slow.

I was hoping to get to lagering temps, but didn't get anywhere close.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Have you looked at no chill brewing? Eliminate the decision?

 

[Hang Glider]

I did this for the first time and was pretty disappointed. I had a copper prechiller in an ice bucket and I don't think it made that much of a difference in the temp coming out of the prechiller. Not sure if the flow was too fast/slow.

I was hoping to get to lagering temps, but didn't get anywhere close.

my first experience with my pre-chiller was disappointing, until I dropped a pond pump into that ice water - moving the water around the coils made all the difference!

 

[BrewThruYou]

my first experience with my pre-chiller was disappointing, until I dropped a pond pump into that ice water - moving the water around the coils made all the difference!

Just a pond pump for the prechiller? The coils were ice cold..I don't think that was the issue.

I'm at a crossroads right now...I want to upgrade my chilling, but can't decide on the following for 5.5 gal batches:

1. Stick with what I have. 25' 3/8" immersion chiller with a smaller 3/8" prechiller
2. Buy a 50' IC 1/2"
3. Buy a 50' IC 3/8"
4. Get a pond pump to recirculate icewater through the IC from my cooler mashtun after the wort hits 100° or 80°.
5. Get a Jamil whirpool chiller...but would need a large $ investment (would need a March Pump and a whirpool piece at the minimum).

Leaning towards #2, #3 or #4.

 

[yellowthere]

Just a pond pump for the prechiller? The coils were ice cold..I don't think that was the issue.

I'm at a crossroads right now...I want to upgrade my chilling, but can't decide on the following for 5.5 gal batches:

1. Stick with what I have. 25' 3/8" immersion chiller with a smaller 3/8" prechiller
2. Buy a 50' IC 1/2"
3. Buy a 50' IC 3/8"
4. Get a pond pump to recirculate icewater through the IC from my cooler mashtun after the wort hits 100° or 80°.
5. Get a Jamil whirpool chiller...but would need a large $ investment (would need a March Pump and a whirpool piece at the minimum).

Leaning towards #2, #3 or #4.

Yeah, you could go to the store and buy 10pound bags of ice for prechilling, but there is something to be said for having a slick, and elegant set up. That's my thoughts on that anyway.

Regarding the pump, if you are choosing between the plate chiller or the whirlpool chiller, you will want a pump either way. You don't have to have the pump for the plate chiller, but it will make it way easier. If you continue to upgrade, you'll want one eventually anyway. My pump is one of the most useful things that I've added to my setup. I wouldn't brew it I couldn't use my march 809 pump.

Your best bet would be to get the pump, get the plate chiller and be done with it. IMHO of course.

On a side note I would go ahead and drill a spigot on your kettle too. It is so much easier. I replaced my ball valves with 1/2inch valves from bargainfittings.com and I couldn't believe how much quicker everything went because of the flow increase from 3/8inch valves. Go right for the 1/2 and you will not have to rebuild and replace them like I did.

 

[passedpawn]

Yeah, you could go to the store and buy 10pound bags of ice for prechilling, but there is something to be said for having a slick, and elegant set up.

Yea, like this... I used to float my boil kettle in the pool (see improvised pool noodle float); immersion chiller inside kettle

Now I use a therminator and pump pool water through it. Works much better in the winter!

 

[BrewThruYou]

Yeah, you could go to the store and buy 10pound bags of ice for prechilling

The problem was that the prechiller wasn't even using much ice. I dumped a ton of ice from my ice dispenser, but the ice was still there closer to pitching temps. I gave the prechiller an ice/water/salt bath after the wort got around the 100-110° range. I think it took me 10 minutes to get to that point, but 100° to 68° took forever. I was actually hoping to hit lager temps, but I gave up after maybe 45minutes of chilling and stuck at 68°. It was in the 90s the other day, so groundwater is warm.

Regarding the pump, if you are choosing between the plate chiller or the whirlpool chiller, you will want a pump either way.

I'm not really considering a plate chiller right now. I think it's somewhat overkill for 5.5G batches (with no plans of going bigger) and I'm drinking Jamil's kool-aid on the whirlpool stuff. If I could get away with a 50' IC and manual stirring in a reasonable amount of time, I'd do that. 25' IC 3/8" diameter with manual stirring isn't cutting it.

On a side note I would go ahead and drill a spigot on your kettle too. It is so much easier.

My kettle is a Blichmann 10G, so I already have a ball valve. I'm a bit concerned that the whirpool wouldn't work that great with the dip tube installed...

 

[yellowthere]

My kettle is a Blichmann 10G, so I already have a ball valve. I'm a bit concerned that the whirpool wouldn't work that great with the dip tube installed...

Great. Can you not remove the dip tube on the Blichmann? In reality I have heard of very few people that actually get a whirlpool by stirring, with a pump, or any other method. The important part is that the wort is moving and the wort's exposure to the IC is greatly increased. It's not a real, true whirlpool, but it is a HUGE improvement of just letting the wort sit there. You will probably need to let the wort sit for 10-30 min after cooling, if you want your whirfloc to do it's work and leave boil trub behind. That is my experience anyway. I've heard others on here with the same comments/complaints. Of course if you use a plate chiller you do not even have that option, so there is the plus side of using the IC.

I've done the JZ whirlpool method for a while now, and it's pretty quick, but still uses a lot of water, which I do not love. It's still pretty quick around 15-25 min for a 10 gallon batch for me in NC depending on the time of the year.

 

[emjay]

The diptube comes out extremely easily in the Blichmann pot, with a unique design that just pops right in and out, and is actually considered a selling point.

As for whirlpooling, I get a great whirlpool, with a nice, tight hop cone. Using a Therminator plate chiller. Of course, it requires a pump to recirculate wort through everything back into the kettle, but so does Jamil's little whirlpooling trick. But the only benefit I ever gained from that was faster chill times, which my Therminator beats handily. Whirlpooling to form a trub cone when you have a big IC sitting in the kettle is an exercise in futility. And whirlpooling with a spoon has never really worked for me, though I'm not sure I know of anyone it DOES consistently work for.

Obviously, it requires using my plate chiller in a less-than-traditional manner, chilling while sending wort back into the kettle. I can choose to only do it for a minute or so, letting the wort remain hot while the trub settles, but sufficiently lower than boiling to make any further isomerization negligible, and then finishing it off as it gets pumped to the fermenter. Or I can choose to whirlpool while chilling until it reaches pitching temp, and then pumping it to the fermenter without further chilling. I guess I could also whirlpool without chilling, but that significantly throws off the intended IBUs.

 

[BigdogMark]

The rig my brewbud and I have been working on uses the 40 plate DudaDiesel chiller and a circulation pump. We also use a big hopsock in the boil to minimize trub and speed up cleaning between batches. We start a recirculation to sanitize the chiller about 15 minutes from flameout, then continue the recirculation after flameout until the wort temp is down to about 140 degrees. Then we begin to fill our fermentor with wort coming out at pitching temps.

Our intent is to stop the hop isomeritization and preserve the late hop throw taste and nose qualities. We believe we have noticed a difference, but who knows. The important thing is the pump is doing all the work and we can sip a beer and contemplate a job well done.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Whirlpooling to form a trub cone when you have a big IC sitting in the kettle is an exercise in futility. And whirlpooling with a spoon has never really worked for me, though I'm not sure I know of anyone it DOES consistently work for.

I agree. I use a hop spider/filter for my hops, so I'm not too worried about getting the hop debris centered in my kettle. The main reason I want the whirlpooling is just to get the wort moving over the coils. In recent batches, I've been stirring with a stainless spoon and it's pretty annoying to do it for the 30+ minutes I need.

Obviously, it requires using my plate chiller in a less-than-traditional manner, chilling while sending wort back into the kettle.

If I was doing 10G batches or larger, I would definitely have a plate chiller in my sights. But doing 5.5G batches, I just think it's overkill in power and cost.

I'm leaning towards getting a 50' IC and seeing what my chilling times are there. If they are still unsatisfactory, I'll add the recirculation arm from morebeer, a march pump, and do the JZ whirlpool method.