New Brewer First ocktoberfest

[AWKBrewing13]

Hey guys I am a first time brewer and had some specific Ocktoberfest Lagering questions. I have done a couple ale's (only one is done the second is about to be bottled) I have been kinda jumping into this with two feet.

What exactly does aging do? How long is long enough? for my first I have 2.5 months before it would be ready (around my birthday)

What temps should I use for Primary? Secondary?

I was told from Hopmans (my Local HBS) before lagering (secondary cold racking) I had to let yeast warm up for 24-48 hours? is this right? what does that do?

When do I take SG?
General question. I have seen yeast starters. Do I need that for a Wyeast smack pack?

Thank you all in advance.I look forward to many posts and great answers.

 

[osagedr]

Are you doing extract? All grain? Or wort from a kit?

Aging clarifies your beer. "Lagering" is extended cold aging designed to result in a crisp clear beer characteristic of lagers. "Long enough" depends on the brewer but a couple of months is a good start.

Temps to use depends on the yeast strain. Yes, you absolutely need a starter for a lager (if you plan to ferment at proper temperatures) with a Wyeast smack pack. One of the most difficult things for new lager brewers is ensuring enough yeast gets pitched; if you are fermenting at proper temperatures (high 40's Fahrenheit) the yeast have to work a lot harder and you need a lot more of them. So I definitely recommend a dry yeast like Saflager W-34/70. Pitch two packages rehydrated as per the manufacturer's instructions. If you insist on liquid yeast use the pitching rate calculator at www.mrmalty.com to ensure a big enough starter (likely in the one gallon range, or even a little bigger). For that type of starter you will want to ferment it out, cold crash, decant most of the liquid, and pitch only the yeast that has settled to the bottom.

Raising your temperature for a couple of days after primary fermentation is nearly completed is your "diacetyl rest." Diacetyl is a buttery off-flavour that can (but doesn't always) occur in lagers due to low fermentation temperatures. Not everyone uses d-rests but I always do--there is no downside AFAIK and early in my lager brewing career I produced a couple of d-bombs and will never risk another one.

So here's my typical lager fermentation schedule: pitch yeast at fermentation temperature (typically 48 degrees or so); remove from fermentation chamber when SG reaches 1.020 or just under, d-rest anywhere from a few days to a week depending on how busy I am; rack the beer to a carboy or keg; wash the yeast if I plan to re-use it; then crash the beer to mid 30's. Some people favour a slow cooling of the beer (3-5 degrees per day) if they feel the beer may still have a bit of fermenting to do.

You should take the SG just before or after pitching your yeast (i.e. before fermentation begins), then again when you think the beer is nearly finished so you know when to begin your d-rest, then again after fermentation is complete so you can calculate attenuation, alcohol content, etc.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

ok, how exactly do you create a yeast starter? so you pitch your yeast after the wort has been chilled in a regulated refridgerator? I also have a glass fermenter (6.5) and glass secondary (5.0) will this improve flavor using only glass materials?

so take your OG before pitching yeast and SG when its almost done bubbling? about how many days does primary take? I already have a liquid WYeast Ocktoberfest yeast. Still good?

 

[AWKBrewing13]

Oh my bad its Brewers Best Ocktoberfest kit.

 

[BryceL]

For a yeast starter you will want to get some Light DME. You will want to mix the DME with water at about a 10:1 ratio. So 1g DME to 10ml water. This will give you a wort with a gravity around 1.040. Boil this for about 20 minutes and let it cool to your pitching temperature. I boil mine in a pot and then transfer it to a growler and dump my yeast in and give it a good shake. Cover the to loosely with sanitized aluminum foil and let it ferment, giving it a good swirl every now and then if you don't have a stir plate. You want to let the yeast get plenty of oxygen. I like to let my starters fully ferment and then cold crash them in the fridge. Then on brew day I decant most of the liquid and pitch that into my 5 gallon batch.

 

[BryceL]

BTW, most of us on here us mrmalty.com to figure our pitching rates. It has a calculator where you can adjust the OG of your beer and what type of yeast you are using. This will tell you what size starter you need.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

im sorry for sounding too much like a newb but what is decant? also how long do you let your yeast starter ferment? I think I need to do more reading. I really wanted to do this kit (my third ever) as a true Octktoberfest lager.

What else should I know. Also this might be kegged. If I started one week from today it will be 3 months fermenting/aging to the day of my birthday. Which is what Im asking for my birthday lol. So when pressurizing how long does it need to sit? when do I pressurize, before or after aging when ready to serve?

 

[BryceL]

Since an Oktoberfest is a lager and fermented at lower temperatures, you starter will take longer. I did an Oktoberfest 2 months ago and pitched/fermented my starter at 50 degrees. I think it took 4 or 5 days and then a day in the fridge to let it settle out good. Decant is pouring of the wort so that all you have left it your yeast slurry. You can leave a small amount of the liquid to help swirl your yeast back into suspension when you are ready to pitch it. I'm assuming that you have some way of controlling the temperature of your fermenter since lagers should be done around 50 degrees?

You should be able to have this ready in 3 months. I'm letting mine lager for 5 months, but it doesn't need to go that long. Off the top of my head I think I had mine in primary at 50 degrees for 3 weeks then brought it up to 66 degrees for a few days to the diacetyl rest. 4 weeks total in primary. I then brought the temperature back down and transfered to my keg, hit it with CO2 then disconnected it to purge it of oxygen. I now have it lagering at 35 degrees. Come serving time I will rack to a second keg, set the pressure to about 12psi and let it carb for a week or two before taping it. Pressurize it after lagering is complete.

And no reason to apologize for asking questions. We're all glad to help!

 

[BryceL]

This should help you also...

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10.html

 

[AWKBrewing13]

So i went to make a starter using light DME water and a Wyeast Ocktoberfest yeast smackpack. we smacked it but forgot to shake it. after two hours I reshook it. then checked again after 3 hours. It never really bloated. I let it sit overnight at room temp and still never bloated so I put it in my fridge where i will be doing primary (50 degrees). Is this yeast pack still ok to make a starter or should I go buy a new one?

 

[BryceL]

Honestly I have never used the smack packs so I can't answer your question for sure. I use the vials of yeast from white labs. My thoughts would be to try dumping it into your starter to see if it takes off, if you recently bought the yeast and have stored it properly. If it doesn't then you might have to start all over again, so it's your call if you want to spend a bit of extra money on another yeast pack. Sorry I can't be of much help on that subject, maybe someone else will chime in here.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

HELP GUYS lol it was 8 bucks so probably will get another one. why waste all that time and money for an 8 dollar fix. but its a ways to drive to get to the HBS.

 

[BryceL]

Try using the search option to look for smack packs, or post a new topic in the "fermentation & yeast" forum. You might get a quicker response from someone there.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

So the smack pack did blow up finally and has been sitting at room temperature for a few days could I still use this by wednesday?

 

[guinnessface]

You can always try to use it, and if it doesn't take, add another smack pack. To answer one of your earlier questions, about the carbonation:
Do you have a kegging setup? If so, I would rack the beer to secondary after the fermentation, let it lager for a month, then a month before your birthday, keg it. I'd add the beer to your sanitized keg, connect the pressure line, and purge it a few times (add gas for a few seconds, stop, then release from the valve to get rid of oxygen). Then I would add the right amount of pressure and let it sit. You can google a pressurization chart that fits the right psi at a certain temperature to obtain the right fizz. Ballpark would be around 10-12 psi. You don't need a full month, but it helps to let it go for that long if you can spare the time.

 

[azscoob]

when I do lagers I pitch a massive starter into the wort at fermentation temp, then let it roll at 50 degrees or whatever the recommended temp is for that yeast strain. When fermentation is at 80% I raise the temp by 10-15 degrees for my D-rest, then slowly drop the temp to 33 degrees. after a few days at 33 I rack it to a sanitized keg, purge the O2 from the keg and park it in the back of the kegerator for a month, at 1 month I transfer it to another sanitized purged keg using a jumper to rack the beer from out post to out post. this gets the lager off the sediment from the first month of lagering, then is sits carbing up til I am ready to serve.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

Well the smack pack that I used actually expanded. I went to the LHBS and they said to be sure that the yeast is still good make a starter for it. I followed this recipe

1/4 light dry malt
2.5 cups water
Boil ten minutes
add to santized enlenmyer flask or growler
shake carefully
pitch yeast
add air lock and stopper

I was told to do this a few days ago but of course I did not. So I do not know if the yeast survived. Its a Wyeast Ocktoberfest liquid yeast. I just let it sit at room temp. So this morning I made a yeast starter and followed it exactly. Actually came out good. Hit the target of 1.040. I chilled it down to 50 degrees then put it into my primary Fridge that is set at 50.

Because I was worried about if the strain survived I did a second one as well. I used S-34/70 dry yeast and performed the same process. With this one I chilled down to 60 then stuck it in the primary fridge to slowly get to the target 50. I was told It should take 24-48 hours to get a good starter. And also I need to let the yeast warm up to room temp for a day prior to pitching.

Does all of this sound correct or would you recommend anything else?
Which should I pitch? The Wyeast or the S-34/70 ?

 

[BryceL]

What you did is okay, but generally you do not need starters for dry yeast. You can just mix the dry yeast with warm water to re-hydrate it prior to pitching. For the lager starter, I take mine out of the fridge an hour or so before pitching so that is can warm up to my pitching temp around 50 degrees--not to room temperature.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

ok... So both yeast starters I made are sitting in a regulated Fridge thats set to 50 degress... After the yeast starts I could just pitch it then right? all temps with be the same because I plan to chill the wort to 50 degrees as well for primary ferm.

Sound Logical?

 

[BryceL]

Sounds like you're on the right track!

 

[AWKBrewing13]

sweet. Should I use both if good? or just the dry yeast since the Wyeast smack pack has been out a week and fully expanded for 3 days?

 

[BryceL]

I would probably pick one or the other so you are not mixing two types of yeast. If you made a starter with that smack pack and the starter is fermenting then I think it's fine to use.

 

[guinnessface]

As a rule of thumb, I hear it's best not to make starters for the smack packs either...just for those in the liquid vials. If you want to get super fancy, once the fermentation is done and after you rack to secondary, you can save about a cup of that yeast "sludge" at the bottom of the bucket. Scoop it into a sanitized mason jar, put it in the fridge and let it sit for a few days. Then pour off the liquid on top, and add another /1/4 cup of distilled water and shake. Repeat 3-4 times until the liquid on top turns clear/clean-ish. Now you have a jar of yeast ready to use for year's Oktoberfest.....just make another starter and do the whole again!

 

[AWKBrewing13]

oh... So I should just use the dry yeast then? I was just told to do that to the smack pack because of the fact that it took so long to expand. So do the start to make sure the yeast is healthy.

As far as freeze dried yeast packets do I make starters with those?

I think if the bubbles start forming AND Im getting increased sediment then the yeast is healthy and reproducing so I will use the Wyeast. I have got a lot of information so I think I mixed up some schools of thought.

 

[AWKBrewing13]

So I took some people advice from here. But when it comes to the D rest I will need to double check what you guys said. I made the batch finally last night. When I took the Wyeast (yeast starter) bottle out from the fridge just to look at it i saw it was bubbling and I had some good sediment. So I did pitch that. Unfortuantely I never got an OG reading (because I was drinking and forgot) Im going to guess 1.055. These have all been kits and have always been in the low-high spec given by the instructions.

I used spring water and had it at 50 degrees as well as the yeast starter.

How long should I let it sit in Primary before I do the D rest?

 

[BryceL]

You will need to let your gravity tell you when it is time for the D-rest. Generally when your fermentation is about 75% complete you will want to go ahead and slowly raise the temperature for the D-rest. I would guess you might hit that point around 2 weeks, but it's hard to say. Just keep an eye on your fermentation to see when the Krausen has fallen and check your gravity.

 

[guinnessface]

Let it go for two weeks, or at least the airlock bubbles have stopped for a few days. Let it rest for two days at room temp then rack to secondary and bring the temp down to 34 degrees until you're ready to keg

 

[guinnessface]

BryceL is more correct in this case....I've gone with my method and it's turned out ok, but there's always room for improvement

 

[AWKBrewing13]

Dude! I finally did the kit with the Wyeast smack pack that was questionable (made a starter to be safe though) and it took 3 days to get bubbling well and develop Krauzen. But its bubblings like crazy now (about as good as my cider) Is this normal for doing lagers? My ferm temp is 50-52? Sound about right?

Also I see huge chunks (using 6.5 glass carboy for primary) thats just strong yeast clumping together right? my cider is doing the same thing.

 

[osagedr]

As a rule of thumb, I hear it's best not to make starters for the smack packs either...

Where did you hear that?