Need recipe suggestions for my second brew - Saison

[Kunal Vanjare]

I am planning to brew a 5 Liter batch of Saison soon, probably on the 1st day of 2020 if I am not too hungover .

I have the following Malt available with me :-
Pale Ale 2-Row
Munich
Wheat
Flaked Oats

Hops available with me are Magnum, Cascade & Nelson Sauvin.

Yeast would be Danstar Belle Saison yeast.

Could anybody help me with a recipe you guys have used? I have gone through a few on Brewer's Friend but they all have some Pilsner as base malt & CaraPils or Cane Sugar in it which I cannot find over here. I'm thinking about using some Orange Zest or Peels or Wedges as well.. so if the recipe can account for this, i'll highly appreciate it.

Also, do I need to add any salts for the water? I will be using RO water for brewing.

Thanks

 

[mongoose33]

You'll need to amend the water with salts but with what and how much depends on the recipe. Might need some lactic acid too depending how light the grain is.

You can't brew a "real" Saison with the hops and malt you have available, but the question is whether you're a slave to style or not. Typical Saison recipes include hops like Noble hops, Styrian Golding, East Kent Golding, and you have none of those.

Further, your base grain--2-row--will lack some of the flavor components of a Pils malt.

BUT--are you more concerned with brewing a style-perfect Saison, or are you interested in exploring what you can do with a different set of ingredients?

If it were me, I might do this (5-liter batch):

3 # 2-row
5 ounces Munich
4 ounces Wheat

And for hops, bitter with Magnum (60 minutes), and flavor with Nelson Sauvin.

Who knows, you may produce a beer you find superior to a traditional Saison. But with a 5-liter batch, it's not like you're producing 20 liters and have to figure out what to do with beer which you don't really care for.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

You'll need to amend the water with salts but with what and how much depends on the recipe. Might need some lactic acid too depending how light the grain is.

You can't brew a "real" Saison with the hops and malt you have available, but the question is whether you're a slave to style or not. Typical Saison recipes include hops like Noble hops, Styrian Golding, East Kent Golding, and you have none of those.

Further, you're base grain--2-row--will lack some of the flavor components of a Pils malt.

BUT--are you more concerned with brewing a style-perfect Saison, or are you interested in exploring what you can do with a different set of ingredients?

If it were me, I might do this (5-liter batch):

3 # 2-row
5 ounces Munich
4 ounces Wheat

And for hops, bitter with Magnum (60 minutes), and flavor with Nelson Sauvin.

Who knows, you may produce a beer you find superior to a traditional Saison. But with a 5-liter batch, it's not like you're producing 20 liters and have to figure out what to do with beer which you don't really care for.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Which salts would you suggest? And do I add them to the strike water or during mash or during boil?

I definitely am looking to make something using what I have right now, so a style-perfect Saison is not something I am aiming for. Just maybe something that feels & tastes like one would be great!

So I will go with the recipe you've mentioned with the Mag & Nelson hops. Would addition of some lemon zest or Orange zest improve the taste?

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Which salts would you suggest? And do I add them to the strike water or during mash or during boil?

I definitely am looking to make something using what I have right now, so a style-perfect Saison is not something I am aiming for. Just maybe something that feels & tastes like one would be great!

So I will go with the recipe you've mentioned with the Mag & Nelson hops. Would addition of some lemon zest or Orange zest improve the taste?

You have to use a water calculator (well, you *could* do it by hand....) to determine that. You add the salts to the strike water before you dough in. That helps to get you to the mash pH you need. How much depends on the specific recipe as well as how much strike water you're using.

Something that feels and tastes like a Saison IS a Saison; you're not going to get that given the ingredients you have. If making a Saison is what you have your heart set on, then you need different ingredients.

If making a beer that is drinkable and different is your goal, then just do it.

Would adding lemon zest or orange zest improve the taste? Depends on what you like. I don't particularly care for Saisons, so it's hard for me to honestly say what would "taste" better. A lot of Saison recipes have orange zest and coriander seed (why I don't care for Saisons). You have to ask yourself if those are flavors you'd like to experience in the beer and, if so, add them.

I just threw the numbers into EZWater (Brun'water is another popular spreadsheet for figuring out water additions), and to get you to a mid-range pH, using the recipe I suggested above, add to the strike water:

1 gram gypsum
2 grams calcium chloride
1 gram epsom salts

EZ water says you'll have the following water profile, which is within Palmer's recommended ranges (depending on how much you agree with them), and produces a balanced result.

So....the only remaining variables are mash temp (I suggest 152) and fermentation temp (which is driven by the yeast manufacturer's recommendation).

 

[Steveruch]

Saisons are farmhouse brews and were brewed with whatever grains were available on each particular farm so I wouldn't worry about not having the "right" grains. And magnum will work fine.

 

[mashpaddled]

There are some saisons out there with pale malt as a base. Not my favorite but they exist.

Personally I brew saisons dry and bitter so if I were in your shoes I would go 60-70% pale malt with the rest wheat. You should do a cereal mash with the wheat. Bitter with magnum to 30-40 IBU and do a flameout addition of half an ounce each of cascade and nelson sauvin. Ferment on the warmer side for the yeast.

Where you go with mineralizing the water depends a lot on your end target and ability to use a lot of minerals. I'd suggest regardless of what you intend to brew that if you are using RO as a base you should download bru'n water or EZ water and learn enough to at least get to some basic water profiles.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Alright, so I am planning to go with this recipe. Do let me know if I'm going wrong anywhere :-

Process : BIAB
Batch Size : 5 Liters

Pale Ale 2-Row : 1.1 KG (78%)
Munich : 0.18 KG (12.77%)
Wheat : 0.13 KG (9.2%)

Magnum @60 mins - 5gms (34 IBU)
Nelson @5mins - 4gms
Nelson @flameout - 7gms
Irish Moss @15mins

Overall IBU - 39.5
Balance Value - 1.71

OG - 1.057
FG - 1.011
ABV - 5.97%
Strike Water - 7.5 Ltrs

Rehydrated Belle Saison Yeast - Approx. 6 gms (using Brewer's Friend Yeast Starter calculator)

Mash Temp - 66 degrees C
Ferm Temp - 20 degrees C

Questions :-

1. I am planning to use some Coriander Seeds & Orange Zest. How much & when do I add these?
2. Regarding water chemistry, I am planning to use Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) and Calcium Chloride. Do I add this to the Strike water before dumping the grains in?
3. Will this recipe be too hoppy (bitter)? I am looking to make a more balanced, fruity beer this time.

Looking forward to suggestions

 

[mongoose33]

Not sure where you're figuring out amounts, but 1.1 kg of 2-row doesn't sound like enough to me. I'd be closer to 1.4 kg. It somewhat depends on process. I'm assuming you're not sparging w/ BIAB, so I think the 1.4 kg is a better bet. The other two are ok.

Not sure about the coriander and orange zest. I don't like Saisons so I neither drink nor brew them.

And as far as the water additions--why? I noted above what I'd do for water additions, and as is noted in that post, you add the water additions to the strike water. If you don't go with the recommendations I made, ok, but I'd want to know the reason. You may want to go back and reread my post above about water additions.

I don't think it'll be too hoppy. How much is "too" hoppy is a matter of taste, of course.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Not sure where you're figuring out amounts, but 1.1 kg of 2-row doesn't sound like enough to me. I'd be closer to 1.4 kg. It somewhat depends on process. I'm assuming you're not sparging w/ BIAB, so I think the 1.4 kg is a better bet. The other two are ok.

I had initially put 1.3 KG of Pale Ale in the recipe, but that increased the OG to something like 1.065. This meant that I would have definitely needed a starter, atleast going by the Yeast Starter calculations on BF. So I kept reducing the quantity of each grain while increasing the yeast quantity bit by bit till I finally reached a spot where no starter was required. I'll try playing with the grain bill again so as to ensure I have atleast 1.3-1.4 KG of Pale in the bill.

Not sure about the coriander and orange zest. I don't like Saisons so I neither drink nor brew them

Sure man, fair enough. I'll do some more digging and I'm sure I should be able to figure this one out.

And as far as the water additions--why? I noted above what I'd do for water additions, and as is noted in that post, you add the water additions to the strike water. If you don't go with the recommendations I made, ok, but I'd want to know the reason. You may want to go back and reread my post above about water additions.

Hey man, I did read your post and did some more reading on this topic. I read that the Calcium contributed by Gypsum was good enough to lower the mash pH. I am definitely not going against your recommendations, just that I got swayed by that one finding, which could also be wrong. I will re-read your post and I also have downloaded EZwater. I'll give it a once-over right now. Thanks.

I don't have a water analysis report, plus kits are rather expensive aren't they?

Also, I do do some sparging. This is done by pouring the Sparge water over the Grain Bag kept on top of the Brewpot

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

And as far as the water additions--why? I noted above what I'd do for water additions, and as is noted in that post, you add the water additions to the strike water. If you don't go with the recommendations I made, ok, but I'd want to know the reason

What I meant to say was doesn't the malt add enough Magnesium into the water by itself? Also I intend to use 1 part Tap water so as to introduce some minerals into the strike water. Hence decided on going for Gypsum and CaCl2