Need Help With Effiecincy Problem

[BryceL]

Hey guys, I could use some help with my partial mash efficiency. I can't seem to figure out why my efficiency is so low. I posted on here once before about it and it seemed like my temperatures might be the issue but I tried to fix that this time and ended up with an even worse efficiency. Here is my recipe and process.

3.23# Pale Malt
2.23# Munich Malt
0.75# Carastan 30L
0.25# Crystal 60L

6# Pale LME

-Heated water to 185 and poured into my bucket.
-Let the temperature drop to 166 and poured in my grains, stirred well.
-My mash began at 154.5 and after 1 hour it was at 153.
-Heated 3 gallons of sparge water to 185 and let this drip into my bucket while allowing the same flow rate into another bucket to collect my runnings.
-The runnings in my bucket were around 130 degrees.
-Final volume of runnings was 3.5 gallons @ 1.032
-After adding this, my LME and topping off my boil kettle to 6.25 gallons, my preboil gravity was 1.051 (my beersmith preboil was 1.059)
-I ended up adding an extra pound of DME because I knew my gravity was short.
-After my boil, my gravity was 1.062 and I was shooting for 1.070

According to my calcs, my brewhouse efficiency for this batch was only 47%, any ideas what I am doing wrong?? Please help. Thanks!

 

[teddy4xp]

I was having a problem with my partial mash and it turned out to be my crush, had to run it through the mill twice. Efficiency went up after that. Keep experimenting

 

[BryceL]

Yeah, that's my only thought at this point. I've been ordering my grains milled from morebeer.com

 

[jfowler1]

3.23# Pale Malt
2.23# Munich Malt
0.75# Carastan 30L
0.25# Crystal 60L

6# Pale LME

I have two questions.

1. What kind of medium are you using to seperate the wort from your grain during the sparge (braid, manifold, false bottom, bucket in bucket)?

2. Maybe this is better for a dedicated thread, but if over half of your fermentables are coming from extract anyway, and pale and munich are available as extract, and crystal/carastan can be steeped, why are you bothering with the mini-mash?

 

[Brulosopher]

2. Maybe this is better for a dedicated thread, but if over half of your fermentables are coming from extract anyway, and pale and munich are available as extract, and crystal/carastan can be steeped, why are you bothering with the mini-mash?

+1

I'm wondering why, with all the work you're putting into your brewing, you don't just go all grain? Quickest fix to the problems you speak of

 

[jfowler1]

+1

I'm wondering why, with all the work you're putting into your brewing, you don't just go all grain? Quickest fix to the problems you speak of

That was kind of the direction I was going in.

To be frank, I see virtually no reason to bother with a mini-mash. It is basically the same time requirement for all grain brewing, but typically done on lesser equipment, with lesser techniques, yielding "lesser" results.

This isn't an "all-grain is better!" argument, simply that IMO, mini-mash is really a waste of time, especially with your grain bill. It becomes a bigger waste of time when you can not achieve your expected results. The only reason I see to do a half-hearted mini-mash is if your recipe requires a huge contribution of Rye (or maybe Vienna). The other "must be mashed grains" unavailable as extract (such as biscuit, aromatic, victory, special roast, amber, etc) would just have to be left out of the recipe, because I am not convinced their 6-7% contribution justifies an additional 2 hours of time on brew day for conversion and sparging. Besides, a small % of Munich extract can give you a similar "bready" effect, at a fraction of the effort.

Munich, Wheat, British Pale, and US Pale are all available as extract. Crystal and Roasted grains contribute the same to your wort in a steep as they do in a mash (Gordan Strong may argue their contribution in a short steep is even better). Between those extracts and the variety of roasted and crystal grains available to you, there are a lot of easily executable recipes. Extract beers can be great, and I am sure they would be better than a poorly handled mini-mash.

If you want to open the world of grains, I really think you should bite the bullet, and learn full all-grain brewing - the reason is not quality, the reason is control. The point of all-grain brewing is total control of the materials going into your beer. The cost of that control is time on brew day, and a reasonable learning curve to dial things in. Mini-mash requires all the time of all-grain, but forfeits the control as soon as you dump in 6 lbs of extract. It is like the worst of both worlds, so I simply don't understand why anyone bothers.

Now that the rant is over, and to get back to the OP, your steps look fine (assuming your temperatures and volumes as given are fairly accurate). The efficiency problem is probably in your crush or your equipment. Some more details about those two things would really help us diagnose your efficiency troubles.

Joe

 

[BryceL]

I have two questions.

1. What kind of medium are you using to seperate the wort from your grain during the sparge (braid, manifold, false bottom, bucket in bucket)?

2. Maybe this is better for a dedicated thread, but if over half of your fermentables are coming from extract anyway, and pale and munich are available as extract, and crystal/carastan can be steeped, why are you bothering with the mini-mash?

I'm just using a large grain bag inside my bucket to separate my wort from the grain. I fully understand the arguments here of going all grain. I have done plenty of research on it and feel that I am ready to go that way, it's just my wallet that isn't quite ready at this point as I do need to get some additional equipment. I think within a year I should be ready to do it. As far as mini mash vs extract with steeping, I was just trying to get away from using quite as much extract. Most of my brews using a larger amount of extract seemed to have a flavor I didn't care for. My mini mash brews have been very good so far, I'm just getting really poor efficiency. But, maybe you guys are right and it is a bit of a waste of my time, I can see the argument. I'm just trying to compensate until I can go all grain.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

go brew-in-a-bag

 

[BryceL]

That was kind of the direction I was going in.

To be frank, I see virtually no reason to bother with a mini-mash. It is basically the same time requirement for all grain brewing, but typically done on lesser equipment, with lesser techniques, yielding "lesser" results.

This isn't an "all-grain is better!" argument, simply that IMO, mini-mash is really a waste of time, especially with your grain bill. It becomes a bigger waste of time when you can not achieve your expected results. The only reason I see to do a half-hearted mini-mash is if your recipe requires a huge contribution of Rye (or maybe Vienna). The other "must be mashed grains" unavailable as extract (such as biscuit, aromatic, victory, special roast, amber, etc) would just have to be left out of the recipe, because I am not convinced their 6-7% contribution justifies an additional 2 hours of time on brew day for conversion and sparging. Besides, a small % of Munich extract can give you a similar "bready" effect, at a fraction of the effort.

Munich, Wheat, British Pale, and US Pale are all available as extract. Crystal and Roasted grains contribute the same to your wort in a steep as they do in a mash (Gordan Strong may argue their contribution in a short steep is even better). Between those extracts and the variety of roasted and crystal grains available to you, there are a lot of easily executable recipes. Extract beers can be great, and I am sure they would be better than a poorly handled mini-mash.

If you want to open the world of grains, I really think you should bite the bullet, and learn full all-grain brewing - the reason is not quality, the reason is control. The point of all-grain brewing is total control of the materials going into your beer. The cost of that control is time on brew day, and a reasonable learning curve to dial things in. Mini-mash requires all the time of all-grain, but forfeits the control as soon as you dump in 6 lbs of extract. It is like the worst of both worlds, so I simply don't understand why anyone bothers.

Now that the rant is over, and to get back to the OP, your steps look fine (assuming your temperatures and volumes as given are fairly accurate). The efficiency problem is probably in your crush or your equipment. Some more details about those two things would really help us diagnose your efficiency troubles.

Joe

Well, to be honest, this was only my second attempt at creating my own recipe. Now that I sit back and look at it, you are right that it's basically pointless to do this as a mini mash when my base grains are available as extract. IF I do another mini mash I will be sure to formulate it with grains that are not available as extract. At least this way there will be some point to my effort.

 

[BryceL]

go brew-in-a-bag

I haven't looked into this too much yet, but what additional equipment would I need to do this. I would like to do full boil 5 gallon batches. Right now I've got an 8 gallon pot w/ ball valve and 2 buckets.

 

[jfowler1]

I'm just using a large grain bag inside my bucket to separate my wort from the grain.

...and I guess you have some sort of ported valve out of the bucket - right?

You just explained why you are only getting 50%. You are doing nothing wrong - that is basically the efficiency you should expect with your current set up. To explain, Palmer talked about different lauter options during the sparge episode of Brewstrong. He talked about experiments he did to test efficiencies of different lauter systems. In a set-up like yours (tun with no manifold, grain in a bag, with only an outlet on the side), he consistently had 50% efficiency. The problem is that the wort has to travel sideways through a grainbed on its way to the outlet, which the fluid does not really want to do. It results in a literally "inefficient" rinsing across the grain bed.

You have a few cheap options, and all would dramatically improve your fluid dynamics. Better fluid dynamics = better efficiency.

1.) The cheapest option is to figure out a way to elevate the grain bag just enough so that it is above the height of the outlet in the bucket. This seems almost too easy, but it would dramatically improve the fluid dynamics through the grainbed as you rinse the grain during the sparge. The bag can rest on the bottom of the bucket during the mash, but you have to elevate it above the spigot during the sparge and recirculation steps. In this case, you are basically suspending the bag to act as its own false bottom, and the wort will be free to drain through the spigot underneath. This method could be awkward, but it is a free solution.

2.) Zap-pap style bucket in bucket. Google it. I dislike it because of its inability to insulate, but since you are using a bucket already, that concern is out the window. This option requires the investment in a second bucket, but is a more stable design option than just trying to figure out how to suspend the grain bag. Keep the grain bag, and just drill more than enough holes in the top bucket so that it is as easy as possible for the wort to pass through to bucket #2. Recirculation will not have to be as thorough as when using a true false bottom because the grain bag will assist you in setting your grain bed.

3.) purchase or build a dedicated braid/manifold/false bottom. Each have their own benefits and faults. Personally, I like the false bottom best. The reasons why merit their own thread.

In summary, the better your fluid dynamics through the grain bed, the better (and more consistent) your efficiency will be. I can't believe I am saying this, but in your situation, the zap-pap + grain bag may actually be your best bet. It is an easy and cheap build, durable, and it is a good visual of how you want your lauter to look when you are ready to begin building a more advanced system.

Finally, don't chase a number. Your efficiency is just the result of your system. That said, 50% is a little too low. Take any of my suggestions above, and I guarantee it will get you up to about 70-75%. From there, learn to be consistent in your process, and recipes will be a lot more predicatable and repeatable. Brewing is more fun when the beer you make is the beer you set out to make.

Good luck,
Joe

 

[BryceL]

Thanks Joe, you have some good options there that I would have never thought of! That make a lot of sense and I can see one of these helping me out. Yes, I do have a spigot at the bottom of my bucket. I've go one incoming tube with my sparge water and then I match the out flow into my second bucket. That process takes about 45 minutes. I will definitely try one of these on my next batch if I decide to keep going with the mini mash. Thanks again, appreciate the insight!

 

[midfielder5]

I like your idea of trying to use less extract & more grain. I would, however, only calculate the recipe w/ 50% conversion and just add 1# more of 2-row. It adds $2.00.

I wouldnt buy more mini-mash equipment unless it can be part of an all-grain system when you go that route later. In the meantime, seriously cruise craigslist and HBT & find a used kettle for the mash/ or go the cooler route. You can use your 8G to boil a 5g batch. My two cents. Good luck!
edit: grain is much cheaper than extract, so if you can go that route, your recipe costs will be lower. It might help you make the leap.

 

[BryceL]

I like your idea of trying to use less extract & more grain. I would, however, only calculate the recipe w/ 50% conversion and just add 1# more of 2-row. It adds $2.00.

I wouldnt buy more mini-mash equipment unless it can be part of an all-grain system when you go that route later. In the meantime, seriously cruise craigslist and HBT & find a used kettle for the mash/ or go the cooler route. You can use your 8G to boil a 5g batch. My two cents. Good luck!
edit: grain is much cheaper than extract, so if you can go that route, your recipe costs will be lower. It might help you make the leap.

I hate buying extract and know I would quickly recoup the cost of any all grain equipment. I suppose I should just bite the bullet and start looking into some equipment. In the meantime, I have some things around the hose that I think I can modify my current mini mash setup with at no additional cost. I'll just keep brewing and saving up a bit of cash

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

check out the BIAB sticky in the All Grain and Partial Mash section

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

 

[BryceL]

check out the BIAB sticky in the All Grain and Partial Mash section

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

Problem is that I've only got an 8 gallon kettle. I don't think that will be big enough for BIAB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though?

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

Problem is that I've only got an 8 gallon kettle. I don't think that will be big enough for BIAB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though?

i borrowed from Deathbrewer's "Stovetop All Grain tutuorial"

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

i use about 3-4 gallons in the kettle (8 gallon) and mash 9-10 lbs of grain then make up the rest of the volume with sparge water. 5 gallon full boil. when mashing you get pretty close to the top of the BK but it will hold temp better the less headspace you have. i went over an hour and only dropped about a degree in temp.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

i also just read in another thread that people don't heat their sparge water and get the same efficeincies as when they did heat it.

 

[BryceL]

i borrowed from Deathbrewer's "Stovetop All Grain tutuorial"

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

i use about 3-4 gallons in the kettle (8 gallon) and mash 9-10 lbs of grain then make up the rest of the volume with sparge water. 5 gallon full boil. when mashing you get pretty close to the top of the BK but it will hold temp better the less headspace you have. i went over an hour and only dropped about a degree in temp.

Thanks! I might have to give this a try on my next batch.