Need help brewing unorthodox

[Rudolf]

Well, I'm a noobie, but I have a tons load of last year's... Matzas (the Jewish Passover bread) which is basically baked wheat flour and water.

I love this kind of bread or cracker and I thought it'd be cool to make beer out of it. I think it'd be like the toast ale, tho my favorite beer is hefeweizenbier.

So my questions are: would it be possible to make a beer using only the matza (and hops) without Malt?
how would I make a mash out of it and what would be the ratio of kg per liter?

And any tips or instructions on the general process would be nice since I am a beginner.

Thank you!

Rudolf

 

[billl]

In short - no. The enzymes in malted grain are what break down the carbohydrates in grain into sugars simple enough for yeast to eat.

That doesn't mean you can't use it though. You could use a kg or so like you would a steeping grain . It would give a bit of a the flavor, but little in the way of fermentable sugar. You'll still need the normal amount of malt extract.

If you are brewing all grain, you could add the matza to the mash. You'll want to keep it less than 50% of your grain bill so you have enough enzymes from the malted grain to convert it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Add a high diastatic malt, like wheat malt, Pilsner, or 6-row to your crushed matza crackers. As long as the average diastatic power (DP) of your grist mix is above 30-35 it should convert fine. It may take 30 minutes longer when it's that low or borderline. A step mash would be preferred to give the enzymes a good shot at it in their optimal temperature range.

For example, for a 4 gallon recipe (OG 1.048):
4# Matza Crackers - DP = 0
2# Pilsner Malt - DP = 120

Total grist 6#
Total DP = 2*120 = 240
Average DP = 240/6 = 40 Good to go!

You may need to add some rice hulls (8 oz) to help lautering, or BIAB (Brew in a Bag).

Mazel tov!

 

[Owly055]

I've baked bread since I was a child, and I can tell you with absolute assurance that yeast cannot consume wheat starch ;-) .................. Haven't you noticed that bakers all have to do a mash with amylase to make their bread rise ;-)

Seriously, yeast will break down starches to some extent, and presumably bakers yeast is better at it than brewer's yeast, or we wouldn't be able to make bread rise. There are several strategies that should work for you. One is to ferment with Brett yeast, and the other is to add amylase, or use the crackers in a reasonably small percentage, and or do an extended mash. Amylase is not destroyed or consumed by the conversion process during mashing........ except by heat, so a longer mash will result in more complete conversion. 6 row malt has more enzyme content. Spend several hours mashing, stir frequently, etc. Another strategy (which I have used), is to leave some unconverted starch in the wort, and add some AG300 (fungal amylase) in the fermenter to finish the job.

Speaking of AG300, awhile back I did another of my 10 minute mash experiments.... though I didn't write it up here. I didn't worry about fermentability too much, but added AG300 to the fermenter. The result was a very respectable brew with a normal FG. There are a lot of tricks in this game ;-) I purchased a half liter bottle of AG300 on Ebay for about $25 a year or two ago. A little bit goes a LONG way. It's a great tool.

H.W.

 

[Lefou]

I also add amylase to help boost mash efficiency.
If doing a stovetop stepped mash, I'll add the enzyme powder directly into my treated water then heat my mash tun to the required temperature without de-naturing the enzyme quickly. I typically turn a moderate portion of my high diastatic wheat into flour when doing wheat beers. When doing decoction boils it reduces the chance of scorching as long as your grain/water proportions are adjusted.

If you're going to use matza as an adjunct, dilute well with water.
No dough balls, just like the grain mash. Pilsner and malted wheat would be a good base, especially if you like the German wheats as you stated, but in order to get a higher chance of "cracker taste", you might want to avoid German or Belgian yeast strains and go with mild Noble hops.

 

[redarmy990]

Well, I'm a noobie, but I have a tons load of last year's... Matzas (the Jewish Passover bread) which is basically baked wheat flour and water.

I love this kind of bread or cracker and I thought it'd be cool to make beer out of it. I think it'd be like the toast ale, tho my favorite beer is hefeweizenbier.

So my questions are: would it be possible to make a beer using only the matza (and hops) without Malt?
how would I make a mash out of it and what would be the ratio of kg per liter?

And any tips or instructions on the general process would be nice since I am a beginner.

Thank you!

Rudolf

Passover is just a week or so away, save them for matza bri, or matza crack.

 

[Rudolf]

Passover is just a week or so away, save them for matza bri, or matza crack.

Haha thanks, but the matza I'm using is from last year's Passover, and now I have a brand new matza.

 

[tgolanos]

Haha thanks, but the matza I'm using is from last year's Passover, and now I have a brand new matza.

I had a crap-ton left over from last year that got lost in the back of the cupboard. I just used it as matzo meal to bake and cook with.

Chag sameach!

 

[madscientist451]

A search on Google turned up a small brewery in Oregon making a Matza brew.
An excerpt from the article:

Starting with the brewery’s signature Ambacht Golden Farmhouse Ale recipe, Kramer and Grobart add up to 13 pounds of crushed matzoh to the pre-fermentation mash. “That’s about two sheets of matzoh per bottle,” said Kramer. The end product is a darkly-colored wheat ale with a crisp finish and a 6.5% abv that makes for a surprisingly sessionable quaff.

Here's the whole article:

http://newvoices.org/2013/03/31/oregon-brewers-turn-leftover-matzoh-into-beer/

 

[Rudolf]

I also add amylase to help boost mash efficiency.
If doing a stovetop stepped mash, I'll add the enzyme powder directly into my treated water then heat my mash tun to the required temperature without de-naturing the enzyme quickly. I typically turn a moderate portion of my high diastatic wheat into flour when doing wheat beers. When doing decoction boils it reduces the chance of scorching as long as your grain/water proportions are adjusted.

If you're going to use matza as an adjunct, dilute well with water.
No dough balls, just like the grain mash. Pilsner and malted wheat would be a good base, especially if you like the German wheats as you stated, but in order to get a higher chance of "cracker taste", you might want to avoid German or Belgian yeast strains and go with mild Noble hops.

As i said, i really love the German wheat beer. I'm looking to make a first try of 5 litter batch using Matza and Pilsner malt, can you help me figuring the grain/water ratio? I dont want it to be too strong or dark.
I was thinking to make it a 60% matza 40% malt, would it be enough to ferment?
And what kind of yeast do you recommend, as matza has a low, close to zero, DP.

Thank you very much

 

[Rudolf]

I've baked bread since I was a child, and I can tell you with absolute assurance that yeast cannot consume wheat starch ;-) .................. Haven't you noticed that bakers all have to do a mash with amylase to make their bread rise ;-)

Seriously, yeast will break down starches to some extent, and presumably bakers yeast is better at it than brewer's yeast, or we wouldn't be able to make bread rise. There are several strategies that should work for you. One is to ferment with Brett yeast, and the other is to add amylase, or use the crackers in a reasonably small percentage, and or do an extended mash. Amylase is not destroyed or consumed by the conversion process during mashing........ except by heat, so a longer mash will result in more complete conversion. 6 row malt has more enzyme content. Spend several hours mashing, stir frequently, etc. Another strategy (which I have used), is to leave some unconverted starch in the wort, and add some AG300 (fungal amylase) in the fermenter to finish the job.

Speaking of AG300, awhile back I did another of my 10 minute mash experiments.... though I didn't write it up here. I didn't worry about fermentability too much, but added AG300 to the fermenter. The result was a very respectable brew with a normal FG. There are a lot of tricks in this game ;-) I purchased a half liter bottle of AG300 on Ebay for about $25 a year or two ago. A little bit goes a LONG way. It's a great tool.

H.W.

So you say, the longer i mash the grains the better it'll turn out with the matza? i was thinking about an hour mash, how much longer do you thing i should extend the mashing? im thinking to use a 60% matza and 40% pilsner malt, would that work?

Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

As i said, i really love the German wheat beer. I'm looking to make a first try of 5 litter batch using Matza and Pilsner malt, can you help me figuring the grain/water ratio? I dont want it to be too strong or dark.
I was thinking to make it a 60% matza 40% malt, would it be enough to ferment?
And what kind of yeast do you recommend, as matza has a low, close to zero, DP.

Thank you very much

For more Matza character I would raise it to a higher % matza, like in the example I gave before, 65-67% Matza, 35-33% Pilsner (or Wheat) malt.

You should mill or finely pulverize the Matza crackers so the enzymes can get to work on them quickly. I'd treat them as if they were (unmalted) wheat flakes or raw wheat berries. Water/grain ratio 1.5 as usual, maybe a little higher if it turns out a bit too thick. With such a high amount of raw wheat, use 8-16 oz of rice hulls in a mash for a 5 gallon batch to keep the mash lush and help with lautering, or even better, use a voile bag (a piece of voile curtain) in your mash tun or kettle (BIAB), for fewer lauterability issues. Wheat is sticky, gummy.

To reduce the gumminess during the mash, you could do a step mash incorporating a combined protein/beta glucanase rest at 122F for 15-20 minutes before raising it to your 148-152F saccharification temp.

Or you can go all out and perform a wheat decoction. A link to such a recipe and method is in my profile.

Calculations and recommendations for DP are also in the example I had posted before.
American wheat malt has a high DP, 180 for red wheat, 160 for white. German wheat malt is typically in a lower, 90-120 range.

Use a simple hopping schedule, not to overpower, but to enhance the wheat flavors. From Styrian Goldings, Saaz, Tettnang, etc. to a bit more adventurous Mandarina Bavaria.

Any wheat beer yeast should work, giving you the traditional cloudy appearance. I've used a lot of WY3944 (WLP400), Belgian Wit, for wheat beers. I'd stay away from any Hefeweizen yeast with a (strong) banana flavor profile, as it will likely overshadow the subtle toastiness of the Matzas. Along those lines, you can use any regular clean fermenting ale yeast too.

Pesach Sameach!

 

[Owly055]

So you say, the longer i mash the grains the better it'll turn out with the matza? i was thinking about an hour mash, how much longer do you thing i should extend the mashing? im thinking to use a 60% matza and 40% pilsner malt, would that work?

Thanks!

Rudolf:
Amylase is not destroyed during mashing, so it continues to convert starches. The lower the concentration the lower the diastatic power is said to be, but that really doesn't mean that it cannot convert all the starch, just that it will be slower. The problem of course is the temp range. Alpha and Beta operate at different temperatures, though their ranges overlap, and the beta will be denatured as the alpha hit's it's peak range. As both are needed, it's good to stay within a fairly narrow lower temp window for a longer period of time if one has a smaller amount of enzymes doing the job. I would probably try to mash at about 148, and hold it there for a few hours. Its kind of a crap shoot doing something like this the first time. Amylase is a good investment for these kinds of experiments, and your LHBS will carry it.

H.W.

 

[Lefou]

And what kind of yeast do you recommend, as matza has a low, close to zero, DP

If you want a hefeweizen yeast with little clove or banana, try WLP320. It won't give off those strong aromas common to German/Belgian strains. Ferment at just under 20C/68F. American Briess red or white malted wheat will contribute excellent DP as you call it. I use Briess wheat, Dingemans Belgian Pilsner, or the German Weyermann grains as base malts for my wheat beers.

 

[IslandLizard]

And what kind of yeast do you recommend, as matza has a low, close to zero, DP.

You can use any yeast, the 0 DP of the Matza is irrelevant to that. The yeast is not digesting the starches, it can't, but it digests the sugars that come from the starches. Starches are long branched chains of sugar molecules that get broken into small bits by a variety of enzymes. Alpha and beta amylase are the main players in that.

The Matza starches (wheat) are being converted to sugar, in the mash, by adding enough of a diastatic malt (Pilsner Malt, Wheat Malt, etc.) which does contain the enzymes (i.e., alpha and beta amylase) to do the job. Temperature and pH are important factors.

DP = Diastatic Power is a measure of the amount of enzymes in the malt which gives it the ability to convert starches to sugar in the mash. It is measured in Degrees Lintner (°L). Same symbol as Lovibond.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

I'd do something with pils and victory malt, I always get a nice crackery note from victory that I think would work with the matza.