need advice | fridge vs fermzilla for temp control

[Brewsterguy]

hey everybody
i live in a small apartment with limited space and need to decide whats the better option.
i brew maybe 1-2 times a month, sometimes just once.
Should I buy a mini-fridge, that will be used mainly for fermentation (meaning it wont be used most of the time), or is it better just using a fermzilla with pressure ferment? (i bottle and dont keg).

Obviously the fridge is costlier, its gonna take more space and produce noise. The not having the ability to stow it away while not being used is also something.
Fermzilla without kegging is also a big con.

What would you guys do?

 

[Dgallo]

I would always choose temp control over pressure ferments. A lot of beer styles youre looking for the ester production from the yeast strain. If your pressure fermenting you are preventing the yeast from producing them.

Also by using temp control you have the ability to target ferm temps for specific strains and are able to produce beers that are better aligned with the styles your brewing

 

[Brewsterguy]

I would always choose temp control over pressure ferments. A lot of beer styles youre looking for the ester production from the yeast strain. If your pressure fermenting you are preventing the yeast from producing them.

Also by using temp control you have the ability to target ferm temps for specific strains and are able to produce beers that are better aligned with the styles your brewing

Even if I will probably only turn it on for like 3-4 days a month?

Unless layering, you only really truly need temp control s when you are in high krausen right? The rest of the time is aging and even 30 celcius room temp won't effect flavors too much. As far as I understand.

 

[Dgallo]

It’s your beer, so you got to make the decision that’s best for you, your logistics, and your budget. That’s said
temp control makes a huge difference in the finished beer.

You should be using temp control until the beer is in the keg not just 3-4 days. For example, doing a hoppy ale, you’d set the beer to 68 at pitch, after 2 days 70, after day 3 or 4 hold at 72 for clean up until terminal gravity. Then cold crash, then bottle or keg. All things you can’t do just pressure fermenting

 

[Brewsterguy]

Got it

Appreciate the answer thank you.
Probably gonna go for the fridge

 

[madscientist451]

Get a small chest freezer and a temperature control unit. Ferment your brews in it and then you can turn down the temp. and use it for kegging. Just use 5' of line and a picnic tap. Used 5 gallon corny kegs are pretty cheap. If you want to take a break from brewing (which I do from time to time) you can use the small freezer or keep the temp. control in use and use it as an additional 'fridge.

 

[Broken Crow]

Yeah, go with the fridge..

Fermzilla without kegging is also a big con.

agreed, and to that end;

just using a fermzilla with pressure ferment?

..pressure fermenting without CO2 gear is a big con and if you're gonna buy CO2, after the initial cost for a regulater, lines & fittings, tanks, the kegs themselves are the cheaper part.
I went the other way and went straight to kegging, but since I mainly do English styles I can still get away without a ferm-chamber for those recipes....I'd like to do a lager, but I'm limited to pressure fermenting it and there are various other styles I simply can't do properly.
Revisit CO2 sometime in the future should you're brewing journey take you that way, get the best bang for your buck to serve your immediate needs over the long term.

 

[fluketamer]

like above, i agree with the fridge. so much more options. ferm chamber . cold crashing, ferment and serve .

also fermzilla with pressure is going to limit you really to pressure fermented lagers. i havent had luck pressure fermenting ales and it seems like thats the general consensus unless others have had better experience.

you can also do fermzilla with temp twister internal chilling coil and ice water bath or chiller.
like this:

but its a little bit of a PITA and the coil means more cleaning sanitizing and nooks and crannies for nasty bugs to hide.

do both. get fridge and spunding valve. ferment in fridge then cold crash and serve out of the FV with a floating diptube. get another pressure rated FV and ferment a lager in that under pressure while drinking the first beer. - pipeline established!


btw . you will use the fridge when not fermenting. what better place to cold condition bottled ales then in a minifridge at 34 degrees.

now that i am on my fifth mini fridge/ ferm chamber, i drink/ make much more home brew then i used to. you will end up brewing more, so you will use the fridge more than you think.

good luck

 

[hotbeer]

What beers are you going to be brewing? Is your apartment airconditioned and what temperature do you keep it?

For the pale ales, IPA's and even for stouts, you can just ferment inside if your ambient temps are in the lower 70's.

I've been fermenting 1 - 3 gallon brews in my home which is kept between 68 - 73°F during the summer. None of my ales have gone over the max ideal temp for the yeast I used with them. Though they do briefly get close for a few hours then the temps return to near ambient.

Will a 5 gallon batch have enough thermal mass and yeast activity to go higher? I don't know. But if the ambient conditions are good enough then there really isn't a need for constant temp control based on the brief times a FV heats up from yeast activity.

Lagering, it's a given you need that control. But for ales and such that don't use lagering, it is not a necessity unless you have to get have a certain temp to for the yeast to give the flavors they sometimes lend to beers at their high or low ideal temps.

 

[Dgallo]

What beers are you going to be brewing? Is your apartment airconditioned and what temperature do you keep it?

For the pale ales, IPA's and even for stouts, you can just ferment inside if your ambient temps are in the lower 70's.

I've been fermenting 1 - 3 gallon brews in my home which is kept between 68 - 73°F during the summer. None of my ales have gone over the max ideal temp for the yeast I used with them. Though they do briefly get close for a few hours then the temps return to near ambient.

Will a 5 gallon batch have enough thermal mass and yeast activity to go higher? I don't know. But if the ambient conditions are good enough then there really isn't a need for constant temp control based on the brief times a FV heats up from yeast activity.

Lagering, it's a given you need that control. But for ales and such that don't use lagering, it is not a necessity unless you have to get have a certain temp to for the yeast to give the flavors they sometimes lend to beers at their high or low ideal temps.

Just a little info on temp, if your temp strip is reading 73, the center of the fermenter is probably closer to 75-76. Possibly even higher as fermentation can be 8-10*f higher than ambient.

One of the things I’ve come to learn over my time home brewing, about 9 years now, you aren’t able to see the impact a new process or piece equipment will have until you implement it.

I used to think I was making great beer without temp control and closed transferring capabilities and couldn’t imagine making better beer. That said, since implementing those thing my beer is certainly much better, routinely scoring 42+ in certified comps. Those two items, ferm control and closed transferring capabilities have taken my beer to the next level.

 

[hotbeer]

But we don't all compete and enter our beers in competitions. If I and my friends like the beer we are drinking, then we don't necessarily have to be drinking the best possible version of it. Even drinking a great beer can get boring after a time.

I can't write this without sounding down on competitions. However I'm just the opposite and glad we have competitions. It's just that to me, the line up of beers at competitions is like going into the sound shops looking for radios and speakers. You hear one great sounding system that gives you everything you want, then go to the next system for that gives you more and sounds remarkably better. Even though both are very high end systems.

As for temps, I never used the stick on temp strip. I always used for several years a temp probe with a pad of 3" x 4" x 1/4" foam on top of it and held securely with tape to the side of the FV. I thought it wouldn't be that accurate. However after getting a raptPill and using both at the same time, I was surprised to see how close in temp agreement they actually were. The external temp did lag a little as the beer krausened and then fell, but I was surprised to see that it seemed to read within a degree or two Fahrenheit of the internal reading.

I'm not disagreeing with your thoughts as much as I'm just saying we don't all have to drink competition level beer to enjoy it. And for any persons new to brewing, I don't think we should make them imagine their beer will be bad if they don't go to that level.

 

[Dgallo]

But we don't all compete and enter our beers in competitions. If I and my friends like the beer we are drinking, then we don't necessarily have to be drinking the best possible version of it. Even drinking a great beer can get boring after a time.

I can't write this without sounding down on competitions. However I'm just the opposite and glad we have competitions. It's just that to me, the line up of beers at competitions is like going into the sound shops looking for radios and speakers. You hear one great sounding system that gives you everything you want, then go to the next system for that gives you more and sounds remarkably better. Even though both are very high end systems.

As for temps, I never used the stick on temp strip. I always used for several years a temp probe with a pad of 3" x 4" x 1/4" foam on top of it and held securely with tape to the side of the FV. I thought it wouldn't be that accurate. However after getting a raptPill and using both at the same time, I was surprised to see how close in temp agreement they actually were. The external temp did lag a little as the beer krausened and then fell, but I was surprised to see that it seemed to read within a degree or two Fahrenheit of the internal reading.

I'm not disagreeing with your thoughts as much as I'm just saying we don't all have to drink competition level beer to enjoy it. And for any persons new to brewing, I don't think we should make them imagine their beer will be bad if they don't go to that level.

Everyone has goals and I don’t flaw anyone for what they are trying to produce. If you have an internal prob measure your temp it’s very close to accurate (as long as the instrument is calibrated).

I was just sharing the info for the op who is contemplating temp control or pressure fermentation. The overall all goal for all brewers is to be happy with what your putting out and if your happy, what I or anyone else shares doesn’t truly matter.

Brew on everyone!!

 

[redrocker652002]

My understanding is, and please realize I am no pro but simply a weekend warrior, is that pressure fermenting Ale's and such is not a good thing. You lose some of the "stuff" that flavors the beer if you pressure ferment. I don't know where you are, but Craigslist and other secondary markets are a great way to get a used dorm fridge or a small freezer to ferment in. One thing to realize is, dorm fridges generally have a freezer shelf that keeps the unit cold. That shelf will not, usually, allow you to use something tall to ferment in. Say a corny keg, but a bucket will fit nicely. I have not tried to cold crash in the one I am using yet. I just move my beer from the bucket to my serving keg, hook up the CO2 and put it in my serving fridge and cold crash it that way. So, for you bottling, I would think that once you transfer to the bottles, leave them for about a week to carb up using either sugar or the carb drops they sell on Amazon or Morebeer, I use them when I bottle, and after about a week, I put two or three bottles in the fridge to get cold. Open them, check the carb level and either wait or enjoy the rest of my labor. LOL. Either way, I think a used dorm style fridge is a much better choice and might be a bit cheaper in the end. Just my two cents worth, and that is about all it is worth.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just a little info on temp, if your temp strip is reading 73, the center of the fermenter is probably closer to 75-76. Possibly even higher as fermentation can be 8-10*f higher than ambient.

Yep. I was trying to rush some beers for NHC in 2023 and figured my Dubbel fermented in a 68F ambient would be fine. It quickly shot up to 78F (measured with a probe in the thermowell) and came out with too much fusel alcohol. (That beer got low scores at a few comps, but oddly got a 42 at NHC, but did not place.).

@Brewsterguy: I have a cooler lower level and I did not think that dedicated temp control was going to be a big upgrade. It has been a game changer in quality improvement, consistency and in convenience. I also use the chamber to cold crash beers to drop out dry hops and for cold conditioning lagers (even for a week or two). It is also very convenient to keep beers warmer than ambient with a seedling heat pad. Unless I am brewing with Kveik, I almost never ferment a beer at ambient temps these days.

 

[Corwin1968]

What beers are you going to be brewing? Is your apartment airconditioned and what temperature do you keep it?

For the pale ales, IPA's and even for stouts, you can just ferment inside if your ambient temps are in the lower 70's.

I've been fermenting 1 - 3 gallon brews in my home which is kept between 68 - 73°F during the summer. None of my ales have gone over the max ideal temp for the yeast I used with them. Though they do briefly get close for a few hours then the temps return to near ambient.

Will a 5 gallon batch have enough thermal mass and yeast activity to go higher? I don't know. But if the ambient conditions are good enough then there really isn't a need for constant temp control based on the brief times a FV heats up from yeast activity.

Lagering, it's a given you need that control. But for ales and such that don't use lagering, it is not a necessity unless you have to get have a certain temp to for the yeast to give the flavors they sometimes lend to beers at their high or low ideal temps.

I've been uniformly unsuccessful in fermenting stouts at room temperature in our high 60's home. Every one of them has off-flavors that match the description of alcohol/solvent. I'm sure a lot of that is my yeast selection, but I'm committed to them.

I won't brew again until I have a chest freezer and a fermenter with a thermowell.

 

[hotbeer]

I've been uniformly unsuccessful in fermenting stouts at room temperature in our high 60's home. Every one of them has off-flavors that match the description of alcohol/solvent. I'm sure a lot of that is my yeast selection, but I'm committed to them.

I won't brew again until I have a chest freezer and a fermenter with a thermowell.

I didn't have success with any stouts either. Though I put the issue to not adjusting the chemistry of the water I use.

Perhaps you are on to something and I should look at fermenting at lower temperatures when I do stouts.

The pale ales, IPA's and other lighter beers I favor more seem to be more tolerant of less than favorable conditions. Be it water or temperature.

 

[Dgallo]

I've been uniformly unsuccessful in fermenting stouts at room temperature in our high 60's home. Every one of them has off-flavors that match the description of alcohol/solvent. I'm sure a lot of that is my yeast selection, but I'm committed to them.

I won't brew again until I have a chest freezer and a fermenter with a thermowell.

That going to certainly be high ferm temps. You’re getting fusel alcohol and ethyl acetate. Your ferm temp probably got up in the high 70s if the ambient is high 60s.

 

[Dgallo]

I didn't have success with any stouts either. Though I put the issue to not adjusting the chemistry of the water I use.

Perhaps you are on to something and I should look at fermenting at lower temperatures when I do stouts.

The pale ales, IPA's and other lighter beers I favor more seem to be more tolerant of less than favorable conditions. Be it water or temperature.

What flavor did you get in the stout, that can help narrow down if it’s yeast and/or water chem related. That said unless your base water is very high in bicarbonate, you almost always have to adjust for dark beers. I have a relatively high bicarbonate in my base (127 ppm) and still need a fair amount of baking soda to mash within an appropriate ph range

 

[hotbeer]

That said unless your base water is very high in bicarbonate, you almost always have to adjust for dark beers.

That's the thing, I don't have very much of anything in the bottled water I use. Here is the analysis for it.

https://www.crystalgeyserplease.com/_files/ugd/700b27_b19da419cac84521a9d3f15e1874e8a9.pdf

It's worked very well for pale ales, IPA's and other light colored beers with out any additions. As well as fermenting at ambient temps of 69-72°F and letting the internal temperatures climb up to 74-76°F for the brief few hours during the krausen. Then the beer is back down to ambient for the remainder of the time in the FV.

When I get back to trying some stouts, I'll do the required additions. And will probably try doing some sort of active cooling to maintain the internal temperature of the beer in the FV.

Though since stouts and even darker ales aren't my go to beer, it'll be a while before I get back to them.

I might call the flavor in the last stout somewhat licorice tasting. I made invert sugar for it and probably went to dark with it when I made it. So that adds some other complication for what might have been wrong.

I have six or so bottles left that are not quite a year old. Maybe I'll try some in a few days.

 

[Dgallo]

If your starting

That's the thing, I don't have very much of anything in the bottled water I use. Here is the analysis for it.

https://www.crystalgeyserplease.com/_files/ugd/700b27_b19da419cac84521a9d3f15e1874e8a9.pdf

It's worked very well for pale ales, IPA's and other light colored beers with out any additions. As well as fermenting at ambient temps of 69-72°F and letting the internal temperatures climb up to 74-76°F for the brief few hours during the krausen. Then the beer is back down to ambient for the remainder of the time in the FV.

When I get back to trying some stouts, I'll do the required additions. And will probably try doing some sort of active cooling to maintain the internal temperature of the beer in the FV.

Though since stouts and even darker ales aren't my go to beer, it'll be a while before I get back to them.

I might call the flavor in the last stout somewhat licorice tasting. I made invert sugar for it and probably went to dark with it when I made it. So that adds some other complication for what might have been wrong.

I have six or so bottles left that are not quite a year old. Maybe I'll try some in a few days.

yeah, if there’s no buffer (bicarbonate) and your using a lot of dark malt, your ph will be very low during the mash.

If you’re starting with bottled water anyway you really should just jump into water chem. It seems over whelming at first but it’s actually quite easy once you get going. I use bru’n water (free spreadsheet) and would suggest checking out. There’s a great introduction sheet that gives you some of the water basics. Will certainly improve all the styles you brew.

 

[hotbeer]

yeah, if there’s no buffer (bicarbonate) and your using a lot of dark malt, your ph will be very low during the mash.

That's a large part of what I was thinking on the reasons.

I did add some calcium chloride to it for the pale ale I recently brewed. But without side by side comparisons, I don't think I see enough difference between this and the other brews I did of the same recipe with just the water and no additions.

But enough of this... the thread is supposed to be about the OP's issue.

 

[Dgallo]

That's a large part of what I was thinking on the reasons.

I did add some calcium chloride to it for the pale ale I recently brewed. But without side by side comparisons, I don't think I see enough difference between this and the other brews I did of the same recipe with just the water and no additions.

Just being matter of fact here, so hopefully it doesn’t come off negatively as it’s to be informative only.

If you aren’t maintaining/controling your fermentation temps and yeast health, you won’t notice much difference in anything else, as those 2 things are the absolute most important components of making clean/quality beer. Without them, great recipes fail. I greatly recommend getting temp control as it will immediately improve your beer. Then move on to water chemistry as that will improve the beer even further

 

[mac_1103]

That going to certainly be high ferm temps. You’re getting fusel alcohol and ethyl acetate. Your ferm temp probably got up in the high 70s if the ambient is high 60s.

I am certainly NOT suggesting that anyone shouldn't control fermentation temps, but FWIW in the past I have fermented several stouts in my basement where ambient is usually in the mid 60s and the only temperature control I had at the time was a fan blowing air around the FV. They all turned out fine (but I never saw a fermentation temp get above 74F).

If you’re starting with bottled water anyway you really should just jump into water chem. It seems over whelming at first but it’s actually quite easy once you get going. I use bru’n water (free spreadsheet) and would suggest checking out. There’s a great introduction sheet that gives you some of the water basics. Will certainly improve all the styles you brew.

I use Bru'n Water too. I've never bothered to really educate myself about water chemistry. I just take Martin's word for it and do what his spreadsheet says.

 

[Dgallo]

I am certainly NOT suggesting that anyone shouldn't control fermentation temps, but FWIW in the past I have fermented several stouts in my basement where ambient is usually in the mid 60s and the only temperature control I had at the time was a fan blowing air around the FV. They all turned out fine (but I never saw a fermentation temp get above 74F).

I would consider you moving the fermenter to a cooler place so ferm temps didn’t exceed the range for the yeast a form of temp control. Is it absolutely the idea version, no, but works well enough to produce a beer without off flavors it did it job.

 

[Bramling Cross]

As a guy that lives in an apartment (the last damned thing that I ever want is to be tied down to a house whose maintenance devours my weekends) I settled on two mini-fridges and two SS Brewtech Brewbuckets, but that was before the plastic pressure-capable vessels and pressure brewing became a thing.

If I had it to do over again, I would stick with my fridges and steel buckets. Plastic fermenters have a shelf life and fully-optioned plastic fermenters aren't much cheaper than a 120 can beverage center. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they're more expensive once you have it kitted out for zero oxygen brewing.

As for my steel fermenters, they'll certainly outlive me and whomever gets them when I shuffle off this mortal coil. The zero oxygen features that I built for them were cheap and equally long-lived. Better, I can boil the most likely source of contamination on a fermenter, its valve, and be certain that it's well and truly nuked.

Contemporary plastic fermenters are amazing! There's no arguing that, but I will respectfully ask whether they're cheaper over a ten or twenty year span?

 

[Corwin1968]

That going to certainly be high ferm temps. You’re getting fusel alcohol and ethyl acetate. Your ferm temp probably got up in the high 70s if the ambient is high 60s.

This is where my research led me to believe was probably the cause, but it's good to hear an experienced brewer confirm it. I've been using Safale S-04, which has a recommended temp range of 59-68, so when I learned about the thermic effect of yeast metabolism, I realized I was certainly going way higher than that.

I've been using plastic buckets in an unused guest bathroom. I won't brew again until I have a chest freezer (I already have the Inkbird controller), an Anvil SS bucket fermenter and a thermowell. I'm really excited to see how much difference it will make.

 

[mac_1103]

I've been using Safale S-04, which has a recommended temp range of 59-68

Fermentis recommends 18-26°C (64.4-78.8°F), although people do argue about that. As I mentioned above, I have made good stouts fermenting up to 74F. Used S-4 for those. Again, this is not to suggest that fermentation temperature control won't improve your beer. It will. Especially if your temps have been getting up to 80F or above. But there might be other things going on as well.

 

[Dgallo]

Fermentis recommends 18-26°C (64.4-78.8°F), although people do argue about that. As I mentioned above, I have made good stouts fermenting up to 74F. Used S-4 for those. Again, this is not to suggest that fermentation temperature control won't improve your beer. It will. Especially if your temps have been getting up to 80F or above. But there might be other things going on as well.

Agree. I would say your goal should be to not go higher than 72, some high ester a strain 74 and Belgian/saison yeast (not all though) 76-78 to push phenols. If you can control with placement to ambient, great. If not use a kviek or get temp control

Again, Everyone has different goals. If you’re happy with your beers that’s all that matters

 

[redrocker652002]

This is where my research led me to believe was probably the cause, but it's good to hear an experienced brewer confirm it. I've been using Safale S-04, which has a recommended temp range of 59-68, so when I learned about the thermic effect of yeast metabolism, I realized I was certainly going way higher than that.

I've been using plastic buckets in an unused guest bathroom. I won't brew again until I have a chest freezer (I already have the Inkbird controller), an Anvil SS bucket fermenter and a thermowell. I'm really excited to see how much difference it will make.

While I would agree with you on the chest freezer I have been using buckets for 3 years now and not had any issues that I know of. Now, with that said, I am no pro and have only done Ales and a couple of Lager styles. The lagers worked out better probably because I could do the fermenting in lower temps, so the control of a dorm style fridge or a freezer did help. I also have an inkbird controller, set it for the middle of the suggested temp range and tape the probe to the outside of the bucket. I know the middle of the beer while fermenting is going to be a few degrees warmer, but with the Inkbird set to the middle of the range I think that will offset the difference. I have even gone a few degrees on the colder side of the middle with good results. But, with all that said, I have never used S04, so maybe that is the difference. Either way, the freezer will help for sure.

 

[hotbeer]

I wrote Fermentis a several years ago and ask them about the disparity between the temps on their yeast packets and their website and other documentation.

Their answer was that doing their continual testing of their yeasts, they've found that the older findings suggesting lower ideal range of temps was no longer valid.

They also said they had too many sachets pre-printed and they were going to use all the old sachets until they needed to print more. It was their opinion and justification for using the old packets that the narrower range of temps on their packets still made good beer.

I can't argue with that reasoning or justification. But I can argue with you guys that claim I have to keep my pale ales and IPA at lower temperatures to get a good beer. I have done plenty that have briefly reached 74 - 76°F and they were very good beers with no undesirable notes.

Beer only gets hot during the krausen. I haven't had any krausen that lasted much longer than half a day. Not sure why I need to control the temps continually for these beers.

Fermentis also said that the website information was the correct information to use regardless of what the sachet says. Here is the current one for S-04.

https://cdn.bfldr.com/G7S7MSWL/as/b5bgjw88vgcpnm9c7csjkt5k/SafAle_S-04_TDS_-_Technical_Data_Sheet

I noticed that Northern Brewer links to the old data sheet with the incorrect information. and also gives the incorrect information.

MoreBeer states the correct information but also links to a old data sheet.