natural carbonation in a keg...

[Redpappy]

As I am setting up my brew room, I am figuring that at some point I will have all 3 of my kegs ( soon to be 4 or 5) My keezer will only fit 3. So If i get to that point, i am thinking of naturally carvbing the keg. How much sediment should I expect to get? Will it be just from first pour, or will it be a little bit over each poor once connected?

 

[Elric]

you might want to look into a keg float to keep your line at the top of the keg instead of the bottom.

 

[Redpappy]

you might want to look into a keg float to keep your line at the top of the keg instead of the bottom.

I'm a little confused, sorry, what do you mean by keg float? Let me go over my system that I currently have. It is the basic system that you can have. I do not have any extra parts to my kegs. My 1 inch co2 SS tube, and my feed tube from the bottom of the keg. Right now I use a Picnic tap.

So far my concentration has been on my brew room, so that I can do EBIAB. which is almost compete. Then my next project will be my Keezer.

 

[McKnuckle]

I assume he means a floating dip tube. It's a very convenient solution whose time has come:

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Top-Draw-Beer-Pick-Up-Tube-P4643.aspx

 

[BruceH]

It depends on when you transfer. I try for about 2/3 through fermentation to transfer and spund. I would guess no more than 8 oz. of the first pour is trub. After that it's all good provided I don't stir things up. I put a bend on the dip tube to get it away from the center of the keg.

 

[schematix]

I will never do anything other than natural carbonation ever again. I do it two ways... for lagers with a little practice and know how you can catch them with just the right amount of fermentation remaining such that they have started to clear, while still enough sugar left to perfectly carbonate in a sealed keg. For my ales they usually drop a point every hour so the window to get them just right is like 2 hours. I usually transfer those as soon as they hit FG, inject a sugar solution into the keg, rack onto that, then seal the keg up. Few days later they are fully carbed.

Highly recommend you look at the Clear Beer Draught System. It's not cheap, but it works flawlessly.

 

[schematix]

It depends on when you transfer. I try for about 2/3 through fermentation to transfer and spund. I would guess no more than 8 oz. of the first pour is trub. After that it's all good provided I don't stir things up. I put a bend on the dip tube to get it away from the center of the keg.

Can you clarify, is your target 66% AA?

 

[BruceH]

Can you clarify, is your target 66% AA?

LOL. Most of my beers are from 4.5 to 6.0. I don't like to screw with things so I watch the co2 coming out. When the bubbles have peaked and started to slow down I really start to watch it. When they get down to one every 4 to 5 seconds I put it in the keg and spund. Sometimes it's fine and sometimes it needs some help to fully carbonate.

I could pull some beer and do a hydro, I've done it in the past but I'd rather play with fire and count time between bubbles.

 

[McKnuckle]

For spunding in a unitank, where there is no transfer to a secondary keg, is there an issue erring on the early side in order to ensure we get enough CO2 production?

I understand why we don't want to inhibit the yeast with pressure through high krausen. But practically as soon as that starts to wane, say, day 4-5 of a lager or day 2-3 of an ale, why not spund?

Again, this is with no transfer, so we're not worried about leaving trub behind or ensuring enough active yeast to continue fermentation.

 

[schematix]

My experience with pressure fermenting is that it does nothing positive for the beer. On the negative side the yeast work slower, and once carbonated they really work slowly.

 

[McKnuckle]

Okay, but I'm not talking about pressurized fermentation from start to finish. Just spunding. My question is about timing.

I would like to be lazy about it rather than obsessively pulling samples and testing gravity every day. That's why it would be nice to pick a fairly observable point, say just after high krausen (based on bubbles), to attach the spunding valve. I would rather not need to time it perfectly near the very end.

So I'm asking if the hive mind feels that this kind of timing is strictly required, or if there is a bit of leeway.

 

[schematix]

Okay, but I'm not talking about pressurized fermentation from start to finish. Just spunding. My question is about timing.

I would like to be lazy about it rather than obsessively pulling samples and testing gravity every day. That's why it would be nice to pick a fairly observable point, say just after high krausen (based on bubbles), to attach the spunding valve. I would rather not need to time it perfectly near the very end.

So I'm asking if the hive mind feels that this kind of timing is strictly required, or if there is a bit of leeway.

there is some leeway but it’s not so wide that you can just cap it whenever you feel like it. The right point is definitely closer to the end than the beginning.

I do an FFT for every batch and sample every day. That’s my lazy method.

 

[McKnuckle]

Thanks.

Actually, another lazy method I've used before is to pull a hydro sample, measure it (obviously), but then leave the full hydro jar next to the fermenter rather than dumping it. I put foil over the top to prevent any major infection. Then I can test gravity every day without further violating the keg to get another sample.

I guess I've answered my own question...

 

[coonmanx]

I recently went to only natural carbonation of kegs and I am not looking back at all. Super easy to do. I boil up 5/8 cup of dry light malt extract with about a cup of water and that goes into the keg before the beer. Wait a week and a half to two weeks and you are good to go. The first couple of pours might be slightly foamy but after that it will settle down and only require serving pressure. A lot less hassle and when the keg is done there will remain only a tiny bit of sediment in the bottom of the keg. It works great and I have been receiving a ton of compliments on my beer done this way. One keg that I took to an "Ice Bowl" disc golf event only lasted 3 hours. It was an Old Peculiar clone recipe. And since I can only post 5 times in 24 hours... @LittleRiver I don't like doing force carbonation and truly enjoy the hassle free way of priming, which requires a lot less work, gives excellent carbonation and saves on CO2....

 

[Bassman2003]

So I'm asking if the hive mind feels that this kind of timing is strictly required, or if there is a bit of leeway.

I started spunding in 2019 and promptly purchased a Tilt. This is a great way to know when to transfer for spunding. Without it you are kind of guessing.

 

[Bassman2003]

I will never do anything other than natural carbonation ever again. I do it two ways... for lagers with a little practice and know how you can catch them with just the right amount of fermentation remaining such that they have started to clear, while still enough sugar left to perfectly carbonate in a sealed keg. For my ales they usually drop a point every hour so the window to get them just right is like 2 hours. I usually transfer those as soon as they hit FG, inject a sugar solution into the keg, rack onto that, then seal the keg up. Few days later they are fully carbed.

Highly recommend you look at the Clear Beer Draught System. It's not cheap, but it works flawlessly.

Question: Why the different process for lagers and ales? The ale approach seems like it is not as "lowOX" as the lager method. Thanks

 

[jrgtr42]

I don't have a CO2 tank, so when I keg, I do natural carbonation.
Generally it's the first pour that gets cloudy, at least if you leave it in one place. If you're moving it around, anything settled will stir back up. I have a Scottish 80 shilling (-\) that's been pouring crystal clear since the second pour.
I do need / want to get a tank - things would be easier than the little injector I have -

 

[schematix]

Question: Why the different process for lagers and ales? The ale approach seems like it is not as "lowOX" as the lager method. Thanks

Ales are too fast to catch at the right time. It’s a couple hour window.

I don’t let it sit at FG either. Within half a day I’m racking it and right into priming sugar solution so it kicks right back up.

 

[LittleRiver]

...boil up 5/8 cup of dry light malt extract with about a cup of water and that goes into the keg before the beer. Wait a week and a half to tow weeks... A lot less hassle ...

For even less hassle, just connect the CO2 and wait a week or so.

 

[Dgallo]

I’m surprised no one mentioned a spunding valve. Then you can rack to a purged keg, closed transferred, with 10 points left and set it for the carb level you want. Probably the easiest way to natural carb o2 free

 

[Bigdaddyale]

New things are happing over at BrewPiLess with pressure monitoring- looks promising

 

[SanPancho]

I’m surprised no one mentioned a spunding valve. Then you can rack to a purged keg, closed transferred, with 10 points left and set it for the carb level you want. Probably the easiest way to natural carb o2 free

probably because so many of ones available to homebrewers are crap. i've made probably 4 or 5 myself over the years and no matter what i did they just wouldnt ever hold pressure. pain in the ass to dial in to correct pressure too, had to unscrew, tighten, check pressure gauge, come back in 15 minutes, try again, etc. etc. if you didnt check that thing multiple times a day or forgot about it for a day or two you could easily see any carbonation disappear.

however- i will say that the aussies have a new one through keg king or keg land or whatever, and it works way better. i think its called bow tie or somethign like that. the assembly is a bit wonky since its all tubing and guest type fittings, but it held pressure for days before i noticed any drop. only used it once, so take that for what its worth.

but yeah, if you could source a spund valve that is reliable then thats your best option.

 

[Bassman2003]

Ales are too fast to catch at the right time. It’s a couple hour window.

I don’t let it sit at FG either. Within half a day I’m racking it and right into priming sugar solution so it kicks right back up.

I see. How are you getting the sugar in the keg and keeping the O2 out?

 

[schematix]

I see. How are you getting the sugar in the keg and keeping the O2 out?

Big syringe. Apply few lbs of co2 pressure to fermentation purged keg, unscrew PRV, inject sugar solution, put PRV back in, disconnect co2, relieve excess co2 pressure, rack beer through liquid port.

when full I hit it with 30 psi and either leave it at room temp if ale, or put in fridge if lager. Couple days later bring it down to lager temps.

I used to verify pressure was building as expected but I’ve gotten better with my process to where I don’t even need a spund valve. I just seal it up.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I see. How are you getting the sugar in the keg and keeping the O2 out?

.
I would recommend you dose the fermenter and wait a little bit, then rack the whole thing over. Better protection

For even less hassle, just connect the CO2 and wait a week or so.

Yea along with the oxidation with it as well. I don't want to hear you never noticed a difference and all the rest of the blah blah folks say. It's proven science you are oxidizing your beer this way.

I’m surprised no one mentioned a spunding valve. Then you can rack to a purged keg, closed transferred, with 10 points left and set it for the carb level you want. Probably the easiest way to natural carb o2 free

10 points is wayy too much and will most likely cause staling of the yeast. 3-4 points is all that is needed. When that happens a spunding valve is not needed.

 

[McKnuckle]

probably because so many of the [spunding valves] available to homebrewers are crap.

Get a SPUNDit. Excellent, purpose-built, well-engineered product from a private seller on Ebay who makes them.

 

[Dgallo]

Deleted

 

[LittleRiver]

Yea along with the oxidation with it as well. I don't want to hear you never noticed a difference and all the rest of the blah blah folks say. It's proven science you are oxidizing your beer this way.

I purge my keg with fermentation gas, do a closed transfer from the fermenter, then apply bottled CO2 for carbonation. Any oxidation comes from the small amount of O2 present in the bottled CO2.

It's proven science that any other conclusions you have made regarding my brewing practices come from bad assumptions.

 

[schematix]

And another thread off the rails...

 

[Redpappy]

And another thread off the rails...

As long as it helps our members, i am ok with my thread being derailed. I got what I actually needed, as we'll as some more info. I have also thought about closed transfer, which was also descrid in some responses....


Personally, i'm tickled with the responses, and am thankful for them, on or off topic. it helps me learn.