Nasty beer bitterness. Help!

[rhys333]

I don't know what's going on here and it's really starting to chive me off. My beers take on a nasty bitterness that seems like over-bittering, or astringency from high mash pH. I clean and sanitize religously, taking steps to control mash pH and adjusting water profiles... adding lactic acid to get in the correct range. Figured I had it beat with my last batch. It's a pale ale that tasted beautiful at 1-2 weeks in the bottle: subtle yeast character, fresh grain flavor, subtle sweetness, and awesome hop flavor. I sample again at 3.5 weeks and all the subtle flavors are gone, replaced once again by a harsh harsh HARSH bitterness. WTF is going on here? I had issues racking my beer to the bottling bucket this last time, possibly resulting in oxidation. Could it be this causing the nasty bittering? I don't know what else could be going on here. Cheers all

 

[MaxStout]

Could be oxidation, though that would give more of a stale, wet-cardboard flavor. But maybe that is what's zinging your taste buds after several weeks. I've had oxidation troubles with a couple beers, and think the culprit is racking on bottling day. No matter how careful I am I seem to get some turbulence from my autosiphon.

If you have access to a CO2 tank, try purging the air from your bottling bucket just before you rack into it. Open the regulator valve and blast some gas in with a length of tubing. Get an extra lid for the bucket and drill a hole in it just big enough to run the tubing through. Then when you rack, you can do it with a lid on to keep that CO2 inside.

 

[bernardsmith]

I guess I am having some trouble determining the problem itself. Astringency suggests an issue with tannins and tannins are extracted I think because of a high mash temperature. Acidity is caused by ..acids and that would measured by a low pH. What is the pH of your beer? I think beer is typically expected to be around 5.5 (or thereabouts). What is the acidity of the water you use? Last question: is it possible that you are creating a bitterness from your use of hops that overbalances the residual sweetness of the beer itself? Is it possible that you are mashing your grains at a temperature that fails to properly modify the grains and so the production of fermentable sugars is distorted so there is no good balance between the true ABV , the residual sweetness and the bitterness produced by the hops?

 

[rhys333]

My mash temp was 152 and I sparged with only 1.5 gal at 168 (BIAB ). I just purchased a pH meter yesterday, so I didn't confirm pH last brewday, but I adjusted water to 5.5 according to ez water. Importantly, my beer was great the first 2 weeks after bottling. Nailed OG and FG dead on. It just took on the harsh bitterness a couple days ago. I don't understand this change.

 

[rhys333]

Could be oxidation, though that would give more of a stale, wet-cardboard flavor. But maybe that is what's zinging your taste buds after several weeks. I've had oxidation troubles with a couple beers, and think the culprit is racking on bottling day. No matter how careful I am I seem to get some turbulence from my autosiphon.

If you have access to a CO2 tank, try purging the air from your bottling bucket just before you rack into it. Open the regulator valve and blast some gas in with a length of tubing. Get an extra lid for the bucket and drill a hole in it just big enough to run the tubing through. Then when you rack, you can do it with a lid on to keep that CO2 inside.

Oxidation is the only thing I can really think of that would build up over time. Unfortunately I don't have CO2, but I shouldnt really need to go this far to protect from O2. My autosyphon was the issue during bottling... thousands of tiny bubbles I couldnt get rid of due to a hop sock wrapped around the end intendeded to block particles from dry-hopping.

 

[MaxStout]

Oxidation is the only thing I can really think of that would build up over time. Unfortunately I don't have CO2, but I shouldnt really need to go this far to protect from O2. My autosyphon was the issue during bottling... thousands of tiny bubbles I couldnt get rid of due to a hop sock wrapped around the end intendeded to block particles from dry-hopping.

I've never used a hop bag over the siphon end. But if the bag is submerged, there shouldn't be any air coming in that way. It might be from the fit between the plunger and the inside wall of the siphon. Mine does that once in a while, causing the occasional air intake problems. Those plungers do wear out over time. Has your siphon been through a lot of use?

Using CO2 does seem like an extreme cure, but I already have a small tank around, so I've been doing that lately. Don't know if it will help, as the beers I've tried it on are still bottle-conditioning.

 

[bu_gee]

How many times have you reused your bottles? You might have an infection going on in there. Try a few fresh bottles as an experiment.

Also, are you careful to leave behind all of the goo from the sides of the fermenter when racking? That stuff is nasty. Same goes for the yeast cake at the bottom. Perhaps see if a secondary fermenter helps with that?

Also, what are your fermentation and conditioning temperatures like?

 

[rhys333]

I've never used a hop bag over the siphon end. But if the bag is submerged, there shouldn't be any air coming in that way. It might be from the fit between the plunger and the inside wall of the siphon. Mine does that once in a while, causing the occasional air intake problems. Those plungers do wear out over time. Has your siphon been through a lot of use?

Using CO2 does seem like an extreme cure, but I already have a small tank around, so I've been doing that lately. Don't know if it will help, as the beers I've tried it on are still bottle-conditioning.

Its a relatively new syphon. My mistake with the hop sock. It was large enough thaf part of it was above the beer. I figurd O2 got sucked down. Was a bit frustrating and anticipated oxodation miht occur. I'll be dry-hopping inside a hop sock from here on out.

 

[rhys333]

How many times have you reused your bottles? You might have an infection going on in there. Try a few fresh bottles as an experiment.

Also, are you careful to leave behind all of the goo from the sides of the fermenter when racking? That stuff is nasty. Same goes for the yeast cake at the bottom. Perhaps see if a secondary fermenter helps with that?

Also, what are your fermentation and conditioning temperatures like?

I've cycled my bottles a few times, maybe 6-8. I flush well after use, then use a bottle washer on brewday followed by starsan sanitizer. Should be safe there no? I am pretty careful to leave behind the gunk. In fact this last batch I top cropped yeast and did a dirt skim which removed most of that stuff. Due to the syphon issue mentioned above, I did get a bit of trub sucked from the bottom though. Not much, but enough.

 

[bu_gee]

I suspect that starsan relies heavily on its low pH to sanitize which wouldn't really work as well on acid-loving bacteria like acetobacter. Even so, it is a long-shot but a relatively easy test to perform.

I use a secondary mostly for that reason. I find it way easier to leave the trub behind the second time around.

 

[bu_gee]

When you tasted immediately after fermentation, did you draw a sample from the fermenter or the bottling bucket?

 

[flars]

are you adding gypsum as part of your water modification? excess can bring out bitterness.

 

[rhys333]

When you tasted immediately after fermentation, did you draw a sample from the fermenter or the bottling bucket?

I sampled from the primary when I confirmed FG. It tasted good 2 weeks after bottling too

 

[rhys333]

are you adding gypsum as part of your water modification? excess can bring out bitterness.

Yes, I use gypsum, but only a moderate amount. I had the bittering issue on batches prior to using gypsum. Its the issue that lead me to try water modification.

 

[rhys333]

Perhaps the spigot on my bottling bucket is harboring bacteria???? No crazy in-bottle fermentation though. Just this lingering bitterness that develops over time, overpowering other flavors

 

[rhys333]

Just reporting back on this old thread of mine...

I rarely keep my beer in the fridge for long, but I left 6 of the nasty bitter beers I mention above chilling for a week. The chill haze has gone (crystal clear now) and the bitterness has gone with it. So I'm guessing the bitterness is due to either grain husk particles or tannin phenolics linked to the chill haze. I wonder if this is a possible downside to BIAB, skipping the filtering step I would otherwise have with a cooler mash tun. Would a fining agent be a good idea in future?