My new RIMS idea

[Poobah58]

Gonna build another RIMS. I'm adding a second element. Going with 1.5" pipe this time. Also going with Tri-Clamp fittings (the yellow thing-a-ma-bobs) for easy removal for cleaning reconfiguring.

With this system I can split it and use one half for 5-10 gallon batches or keep it as is for 10-15 gallon batches. If I need to do a larger batch, I will use two mash tuns, split this unit and be able to use a RIMS on both mash tuns! I can also lend a half to a brewing buddy (for a small beer fee of course).

 

[Cyan]

Looks great, I'm waiting in anticipation to see the pics/videos of it in action!

 

[The Pol]

Double element RIMS? Naaaah, that will never work Good temp probe location.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I would place the element tubes in parallel with a valve between then to keep the flows balanced between both heating elements plus able to close off and only use one for small batches. In series your temp probe signals to the controller would be confused.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm wondering what the perceived benefit of running in series is? Why not just run one all the time?

 

[The Pol]

In this application. Will each element be controlled by its own temp. probe/PID?

I am a little confused about how that control will take place.

In my application, I have ONE temp probe and ONE PID controlling both elements. When I want to run at 4500W and not the full 9000W, the ONE element is then controlled by the single temp. probe and single PID yet.

When running BOTH elements, I would imagine you would have to have SINGLE PID and SINGLE temp. probe control at the outlet, and negate the use of the other temp probe location.

How is the monitor/control end going to work?

 

[Poobah58]

I would place the element tubes in parallel with a valve between then to keep the flows balanced between both heating elements plus able to close off and only use one for small batches. In series your temp probe signals to the controller would be confused.

Don't want them in parallel. It is possible to have one side stuck or run dry or get an air bubble. Our brew club used 2 elements on our 50 gallon batch. We tried parallel at first and it was a nightmare. Went MUCH smoother in series.

 

[Poobah58]

I am going with 2 temp probes and a Koyo PLC controller. I'm thinking heater #1 will be a degree or two less than heater #2. A preheater more or less. I can program anything into the PLC. I can set duty cycles to achieve anywhere between 0-2250W (approx). I will tinker when it's all hooked up.

 

[Poobah58]

I'm wondering what the perceived benefit of running in series is? Why not just run one all the time?

The benefit is I can have up to 2250 watts of heating power over 40" inches of element thus quickening my ramp times while reducing scorching.

 

[The Pol]

Don't want them in parallel. It is possible to have one side stuck or run dry or get an air bubble. Our brew club used 2 elements on our 50 gallon batch. We tried parallel at first and it was a nightmare. Went MUCH smoother in series.

I am having a hard time, with my simple mind, figuring out how series would be a problem. Basically you took a straight tube with a single element, bent it and split the element in two.

As long as you have the elements running on the same PID and temp. control, they will be acting as ONE element in a straight tube... bending the tube and splitting your wattage over two elements will change nothing as far as I can see.

You probably dont want dueling PIDs though, so one control and one temp. probe active while using both elements would be key.

 

[The Pol]

I am going with 2 temp probes and a Koyo PLC controller. I'm thinking heater #1 will be a degree or two less than heater #2. A preheater more or less. I can program anything into the PLC. I can set duty cycles to achieve anywhere between 0-2250W (approx). I will tinker when it's all hooked up.

Okay, I got it... this is different then 2 elements running on dueling PIDs... cool

 

[The Pol]

The benefit is I can have up to 2250 watts of heating power over 40" inches of element thus quickening my ramp times while reducing scorching.

FWIW, people have used 4500W LWD elements in RIMS heaters here recently and have had no issues with scorching. I think CodeRage started that.

I like the dual element RIMS idea... but for the power that you are looking at, you could probably get away with one element, if you wanted. Though I respect you wanting to do your own thing.

 

[Poobah58]

FWIW, people have used 4500W LWD elements in RIMS heaters here recently and have had no issues with scorching. I think CodeRage started that.

I like the dual element RIMS idea... but for the power that you are looking at, you could probably get away with one element, if you wanted. Though I respect you wanting to do your own thing.

I have a 1500W/120V RIMS now in 2" pipe. Works great on 5 gallon batches and low SG 10 gallon batches. We have had some trouble with the larger grain beds. When I get up to 40 lbs of grain, things just start happening. Mostly due to low flows however. This is why I want to split them up and have 2 separate mashes.

 

[Poobah58]

In a PLC I can also play with duty cycles to achieve 0-2250W of heating power. I can use the last sensor to control both elements or use sensor #1 as a preheat, or adjust heater #1 setpoint when I get closer to desired setpoint. I can turn them off at any point also and just go with one. The power of the PLC!

 

[The Pol]

In a PLC I can also play with duty cycles to achieve 0-2250W of heating power. I can use the last sensor to control both elements or use sensor #1 as a preheat, or adjust heater #1 setpoint when I get closer to desired setpoint. I can turn them off at any point also and just go with one. The power of the PLC!

The BCS is making it easy for me to control the elements individually or control them as "one" or operate on one element... etc. Without it, it would be a pain.

Cant wait to see what you create.

 

[samc]

Any thoughts on how fast your ramp times will be with this new set-up vs. the 2" pipe you were using on a 10 gallon batch?

 

[The Pol]

Any thoughts on how fast your ramp times will be with this new set-up vs. the 2" pipe you were using on a 10 gallon batch?

The biggest problem with mash ramp time is the flow rate, not the ability to heat. It doesnt take much wattage to heat .5 gallons per minute from say 130-150, but you have to turn over all that mash water a few times to heat the mash.

It only takes about 2500W to heat .5 gallons per minute (flow) from 130-150... the bottleneck is always the flow rate.

But if you are flowing at .5 gallons/minute it can take 10 minutes to turn over that water just once, leaving you with long ramp times.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Don't want them in parallel. It is possible to have one side stuck or run dry or get an air bubble. Our brew club used 2 elements on our 50 gallon batch. We tried parallel at first and it was a nightmare. Went MUCH smoother in series.

A bit of topic but I run two low watt elements in parallel to keep the heat difference low, output vs the input temps as I have a high water flow for my Koi ponds heating and filtering system in the winter. This has been 100% trouble free the past 7 years with the original elements no dry element problems. Those old commercial mercury ringed stats as used in commercial buildings years ago maintain the low and high temp limits protecting the fish.
Ok, so with your application in brewing it caused you problems, I respect your results as your not heating within 2*F increases as well flowing at 14 gallons a minute as in my installation.

 

[Poobah58]

Any thoughts on how fast your ramp times will be with this new set-up vs. the 2" pipe you were using on a 10 gallon batch?

Not yet! I think I was ramping at a rate of 1° per 1.5 minutes with my current RIMS.

 

[Jmurm]

Would a system like this work to heat 25 gallons? I want to make a set up like this to make larger batches. If i were to have a full false bottom this should solve the flow issue. What would be the largest batch you could make with 9000W?

 

[The Pol]

Would a system like this work to heat 25 gallons? I want to make a set up like this to make larger batches. If i were to have a full false bottom this should solve the flow issue. What would be the largest batch you could make with 9000W?

With 9000W you could do 20 gallon batches, even 30 gallons. You can get 30 gallons from 150F to a boil in 34 minutes with 9000W.

 

[Poobah58]

Started programming this last night. Forgot how cumbersome it is to program analog inputs and PID loops in a Koyo PLC. They're great for simple ladder logic stuff. They don't deal with analog stuff in a friendly manner. You have to write a program just to read an analog input. The PID resides in memory. Not like you can just plop a PID onto the logic page. Allen Bradley Contrologix has got me spoiled! May have to re-think this and look into the BSC-460 or two PID controls to save a bit of time and effort and probably money. Koyo PLC and RTD input is $400. I then need to buy a $300+ operator interface. SWMBO won't be happy with this endeavor!

 

[The Pol]

Started programming this last night. Forgot how cumbersome it is to program analog inputs and PID loops in a Koyo PLC. You have to write a program just to read an analog input. The PID resides in memory. Not like you can just plop a PID onto the logic page. Allen Bradley Contrologix has got me spoiled! May have to re-think this and look into the BSC-460 to save a bit of time and effort and probably money.

The BCS is nice, it has its own learning curve... but for $180 bucks it offers a lot of functionality and a clean interface.

 

[Poobah58]

Well, this is on hold for a while. Tore both my rotator cuffs and can't even pick up a wrench! Surgery on the 18th on one shoulder, then in a sling for 6 weeks. After some rehab we get to do the other! Maybe late summer/early autumn...

 

[willynilly]

Dang bro, sorry to hear about that... think of all the crazy ideas you will be able to think up by then. Get well soon.