My homebrew vs commercial brewery beer

[madscientist451]

Homebrewers are either complacent or lack the tools/knowledge to emulate some of this. I didn't say all of it. Just some of it. We can come very close in many respects, actually. But not if we're lazy. And many homebrewers are.

That's me....actually I have ten times more hobbies than I should have and my work/commute takes up 70-80 hrs a week, so If I just focused on one thing I suppose I could be a top notch homebrewer. I would like to have more time to be a lazy brewer.
But hobbies are supposed to be fun. Fun for me is doing a bunch of different things,(other than beer) and when I do have time for brewing, to brew something that isn't something I can buy at the store.
The stores around here are all stocked with IPA's. So I brew porters, stouts, English Milds, Saisons, Lagers for the summertime, and experimental beers with new hops and different combinations of local fruit.
The OP wants to compare his brew to commercial beers and that's a great goal,
but isn't there some value in making something different that you'll never see in a store?
My suggestions to the OP would be to invest in a small scale, get all the various water additions you'll need and brew a batch with distilled water built to the style you like.
Use an established clone recipe for a commercial beer you like.
Brew the same thing with your local water and see which one you like better. And compare it with the commercial example.
A great resource is the old "Can You Brew" It podcast. If you listen to the discussion and do what they did, its not all that difficult to make homebrew as good as commercial beer. From what I remember, they always did water additions, used the same malts the commercial brewers did and followed a specific fermetation temperature schedule.
Here's all the recipes in one place:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/can-you-brew-it-database.178064/

 

[mongoose33]

not where I got it but this looks like the same powder .

https://chicagobrewwerks.com/collections/water-salts/products/water-crystals-1-2-oz

Forgive me, but what's in those "water crystals"?

It has to be a one-size-fits-all solution to a specific problem, i.e., water that is too soft. Would your beer be better if you had a more specific and precise addition to your water?

 

[mongoose33]

hardener powder...it was in a small plastic bag when my longtime buddy gave me the starter kit. makes soft water hard I guess.

Theres no fear in repeating a recipe, just so many styles to try first. Just havent gotten around to repeating one yet. The only one or two I would definitely repeat would be the Bavarian Hef (Northern Brewing) I made for my wife and the Maerzen (my own recipe) I mentioned. Those are like a good solid "daily drinking beer" .

Forgive me, again, but if they aren't worth repeating....are they really any good? Or just past "drinkable?"

The first time I nailed a recipe my initial response was "I'm brewing that again!"

I note in your other response that you added the hardening powder and it seemed to help; how do you know? If you didn't brew the same recipe, with and without, how can you tell?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I still havent made him his own gluten free beer yet but its coming. I'm going to make a point to have a batch done for Fathers day.

Yes, you should - the poor bloke isn't getting any younger.

 

[bob1852]

Most things have been covered already. But here's my take:

Commercial beer is rigorously conditioned, polished, and packaged. Processes are tightly controlled, from water chemistry to mash pH, absolutely consistent temperature control on both hot and cold sides, and painstaking exclusion of oxygen post-pitch

If only this were true!! There's a lot of breweries that are basically just larger homebrewing operations.

I've been on too many tours of small breweries and asked simple questions about water chemistry, sanitization, yeast management, etc where the brewer's answers showed that they really didn't have an understanding of the many of these things.

And, of course, their product shows that...


Things I've actually heard from different commercial operations:

"We had our ground water tested and it's great for all styles"

"We use the same yeast for all styles and just mix up the grain bill and hops"

"We don't really worry about oxygen much because we're kegging"

 

[McKnuckle]

I'd never state that it was true for 100% of commercial breweries. But the ones with consistent quality and character in their beers are not cutting corners to the extent that homebrewers do. How could they?

If you're talking about very small American breweries, I haven't visited those. I've been to several small, medium, and large breweries in the UK though, so I take my cues from what I saw there. The same can be said for German and American operations that I've seen in videos. These are generally places where everything is dialed in and endlessly repeatable, reliable, and predictable.

A brewery's groundwater might be great for all the styles they brew. I guess if the beers were flawed due to water, it would be detectable, unpleasant, and the beer wouldn't sell. If the flavor is good, that's all that matters, even with a laissez-faire attitude towards water.

Many breweries do use the same yeast for all styles - it's their house yeast after all, and often defines them. I'm speaking more about classic breweries here - English, German, Belgian - than the latest American micro using a White Labs strain.

And I doubt that a brewer's flippant answer about "not worrying" about oxygen really translates into practice. If it does, then I agree with you that such a person is foolish.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Many breweries do use the same yeast for all styles - it's their house yeast after all, and often defines them. I'm speaking more about classic breweries here - English, German, Belgian - than the latest American micro using a White Labs strain.

I agree, and would think that in many cases the same could be said for the water, as well.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'd never state that it was true for 100% of commercial breweries. But the ones with consistent quality and character in their beers are not cutting corners to the extent that homebrewers do. How could they?

If you're talking about very small American breweries, I haven't visited those. I've been to several small, medium, and large breweries in the UK though, so I take my cues from what I saw there. The same can be said for German and American operations that I've seen in videos. These are generally places where everything is dialed in and endlessly repeatable, reliable, and predictable.

A brewery's groundwater might be great for all the styles they brew. I guess if the beers were flawed due to water, it would be detectable, unpleasant, and the beer wouldn't sell. If the flavor is good, that's all that matters, even with a laissez-faire attitude towards water.

Many breweries do use the same yeast for all styles - it's their house yeast after all, and often defines them. I'm speaking more about classic breweries here - English, German, Belgian - than the latest American micro using a White Labs strain.

And I doubt that a brewer's flippant answer about "not worrying" about oxygen really translates into practice. If it does, then I agree with you that such a person is foolish.

I've been to a number of local micros where the beer would lead me to believe the poster you quoted. For some of these places, their best beer is not as good and my middle of the road stuff. When I can get a flight, all styles that I enjoy, and not a single beer is something I'd want to drink again, that's a problem. It's not all that rare. Those places typically don't last long unless they also server good food.

I may not be the best judge though, since I take beer very seriously and put a fair amount of effort into getting (and brewing) the best I can get.

 

[bob1852]

A brewery's groundwater might be great for all the styles they brew. I guess if the beers were flawed due to water, it would be detectable, unpleasant, and the beer wouldn't sell. If the flavor is good, that's all that matters, even with a laissez-faire attitude towards water.

Nope, their water was okay for darker styles, but not for lighter beers. They also told me they did no modification at all.

Many breweries do use the same yeast for all styles - it's their house yeast after all, and often defines them.

The particular brewery I'm referencing used the same yeast for stouts, IPAs, hefe's and kolsch.

Have you ever had a decent hefe made with us-05?

And I doubt that a brewer's flippant answer about "not worrying" about oxygen really translates into practice. If it does, then I agree with you that such a person is foolish.

All of this particular brewery's beers were oxidized. Not to the point of cardboard, but flabby, lifeless, and significantly darker than they should've been...

With 5000+ breweries (or whatever the number is now), there's an awful lot of bad beer out there....

 

[McKnuckle]

Fair enough. Suffice to say, then, that the OP wasn't referring to those breweries when he was comparing his homebrew to commercial beer!

So in my response I had the same perspective. Just talking about the places that make beer of consistent professional quality and flavor.

 

[shoreman]

Cleaning/Sanitation & Temperature control. Try completely nailing those with a single yeast strain before getting into water.

 

[Horseflesh]

The two things that made my beer immediately, obviously better were:

• Minding water chemistry — controlling mash pH, and adding minerals appropriate to style. (You can do this cheap. Get a spreadsheet and trust it. You don’t need a pH meter until you want a pH meter.)
• Doing my best to keg with minimal oxygen exposure — transfer into a CO2 purged keg

A lot of people would add fermentation temperature control to that list. IMHO it’s as fundamental as boiling wort, though. I controlled temperature from my first extract batch. It’s not an add-on to me.

I am making good beer these days but like OP I often wonder why my malt flavors don’t pop more. Queue the LODO guys, I guess.

 

[Soulshine2]

Forgive me, but what's in those "water crystals"?

It has to be a one-size-fits-all solution to a specific problem, i.e., water that is too soft. Would your beer be better if you had a more specific and precise addition to your water?

i have no idea. Im sure one could look it up. I would think an analysis is available somewhere.
again , no idea

 

[Soulshine2]

Forgive me, again, but if they aren't worth repeating....are they really any good? Or just past "drinkable?"

The first time I nailed a recipe my initial response was "I'm brewing that again!"

I never said any werent worth repeating. yes, theyre really good. why do I sense you trying to start an argument here ? You keep hinting my beer is inadequate for my own taste.

I note in your other response that you added the hardening powder and it seemed to help; how do you know? If you didn't brew the same recipe, with and without, how can you tell?

I dont know, just a guess on if the addition did anything.

 

[Dland]

In addition to many of the factors already stated, allowing beer to condition for a time will help most beers.

This is especially true of lagers, which benefit greatly from 4-6 weeks cold. I let mine sit still at 33F for at least 4 weeks before I tap, and they do get better if lagered longer.

In my opinion many ales improve also, but do some do not take as long to reach their prime.

Commercial brews may not age as much, but they have filtering and ''polished,'' as already mentioned. And most of them taste oxidized to me now, but that may be mainly due to handling after they left the brewery.

 

[Soulshine2]

In addition to many of the factors already stated, allowing beer to condition for a time will help most beers.

This is especially true of lagers, which benefit greatly from 4-6 weeks cold. I let mine sit still at 33F for at least 4 weeks before I tap, and they do get better if lagered longer.

In my opinion many ales improve also, but do some do not take as long to reach their prime.

Commercial brews may not age as much, but they have filtering and ''polished,'' as already mentioned. And most of them taste oxidized to me now, but that may be mainly due to handling after they left the brewery.

a little age always helps.

 

[Gameface]

Cleaning/Sanitation & Temperature control. Try completely nailing those with a single yeast strain before getting into water.

In my opinion cleaning/sanitation is pass or fail. There are no incremental gains to be achieved by cleaning better. Either you provided adequate sanitation or you got an infection. This is not a way to make you beer a little better by cleaning a little more.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

With 5000+ breweries (or whatever the number is now), there's an awful lot of bad beer out there....

This. A boatload of mediocre beer...those places ultimately won't survive unless they also serve fantastic food or something.

 

[shoreman]

In my opinion cleaning/sanitation is pass or fail. There are no incremental gains to be achieved by cleaning better. Either you provided adequate sanitation or you got an infection. This is not a way to make you beer a little better by cleaning a little more.

How do you gauge pass/fail? Commercial brewers go to great lengths in this department, a good amount of homebrewers are super lax around this. I'm not saying cleaning more will help, but if you aren't employing a PBW clean followed up by a Star San sanitize on brew day and packaging, you are taking chances that Commercial brewers never take. That is why you start there, it is a big difference between homebrewing and commercial brewing. As a BJCP judge I've tasted more than my fair share of infected beer that no doubt was to poor sanitation and cleaning.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

How do you gauge pass/fail? Commercial brewers go to great lengths in this department, a good amount of homebrewers are super lax around this. I'm not saying cleaning more will help, but if you aren't employing a PBW clean followed up by a Star San sanitize on brew day and packaging, you are taking chances that Commercial brewers never take. That is why you start there, it is a big difference between homebrewing and commercial brewing. As a BJCP judge I've tasted more than my fair share of infected beer that no doubt was to poor sanitation and cleaning.

I think you're missing his point. Cleaning and sanitizing is either sufficient to not induce infection or off flavors, or it's not. As he said, if the cleaning and sanitizing are sufficient, there's no gains to cleaning better. If you're really lax, are there risks, sure. If those risks are realized, you've failed. If not, then you're not being too lax.

I've brewed with a guy who removed everything from his kitchen and sanitized all floors, countertops, walls, etc. prior to brewing. He certainly cleaned and sanitized much more thoroughly than I do. If he followed my cleaning and sanitizing process, his beer would taste the same as it does with his.

 

[JHulen]

It’s hard to know what your beer needs without knowing your full process. For me when I implemented what I consider the 4 most important steps my beer started to become commercial quality. This is what did it for me:

1. Temp control...not a cold basement or wet towels. Get a fridge and a controller.

2. Yeast health and quantity. Make a starter or pitch multiple packs.

3. Oxygen...shaking will not get you to the o2 levels the pros use. I use a $50 o2 kit and a diffusion stone. The tanks are like $10 at Home Depot.

4. Water chemistry... I use the EZ water spreadsheet. It’s free and super easy.

Do these 4 things and your beer will be commercial quality. I’m not a master by any means, I’m just giving my opinion and speaking from my own experience.

 

[ESBrewer]

Control pH, pitch rates(not too low)/yeast viability, use yeast nutrient, control fermentation temperatures and sanitize the materials. You should aim for a healthy and active fermentation and minimize the chance of contaminants growing in the fermenter / bottles by using enough active yeast. Take measures to minimize exposure to oxygen post fermentation because it tends to stale those fresh flavors and aromas. Also, use enough fresh yeast at the time of (possible) bottling. Try to find fresh, high quality ingredients (water included). For some styles, you may need to adjust the minerals. Some beers can be great when turbid / murky but some beers may benefit from clarification that can be done in different ways (not only by filtration which is rather complicated at home). But the most important thing affecting beer taste is probably the recipe...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I've brewed with a guy who removed everything from his kitchen and sanitized all floors, countertops, walls, etc. prior to brewing. He certainly cleaned and sanitized much more thoroughly than I do. If he followed my cleaning and sanitizing process, his beer would taste the same as it does with his.

I think I might invite your buddy over to brew a beer in my kitchen next week...and in my garage the following week...and in my living room after that...

 

[couchsending]

Water Chemistry
pH (beyond just the mash)
Aeration
Pitch rate
Yeast health
Oxidation (hot and cold)
Carbonation
- most commercial beers are carbonated higher than the recommended 2.5.

If you feel like driving to Park City I can go through water chemistry and all sorts of other stuff with you if you’d like. Brewing 2-4 times a week these days.

 

[Jako]

This. A boatload of mediocre beer...those places ultimately won't survive unless they also serve fantastic food or something.

this was in a pod cast the other day. word for word. mostly because its true.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Everytime I drink a beer from a brewery I can't help but notice my beers lack that crisp and clean flavor you get on a professional level. Not that my beers are cloudy or still green it's as if the homebrew has more body or something extra within. Is this a result of not filtering my beer? Its Iike I am missing some malt backbone at times.

Keep in mind this is probably a unpopular comment to most on this site but making VERY good commercial level beer at home required alot more effort than most are willing to put in. It's a combination of everything. One thing I can assure you is filtering your beer won't help as tempting as it is. Don't believe the brewers that claim they make top shelf stuff with the least effort possible and **always** do something better each brew and you will get there eventually. Cheers

 

[Jako]

Water Chemistry
pH (beyond just the mash)
Aeration
Pitch rate
Yeast health
Oxidation (hot and cold)
Carbonation
- most commercial beers are carbonated higher than the recommended 2.5.

If you feel like driving to Park City I can go through water chemistry and all sorts of other stuff with you if you’d like. Brewing 2-4 times a week these days.

i would love to help out with a brew day sometime soon. i am not brewing until i sort out my water and drink the 4 kegs i have. PM me and we can work something out. i would be willing to split a batch for the knowledge

 

[CascadesBrewer]

i would love to help out with a brew day sometime soon. i am not brewing until i sort out my water and drink the 4 kegs i have. PM me and we can work something out. i would be willing to split a batch for the knowledge

Google tells me it is only 2,049 miles from my place to Park City. You just need to give me a little lead time on your brew day for me to meet up with you!

Personally I find it hard to get real feedback on my beers and even harder to get specific advice that is not recipe related. My friends and family say my beer is "great" as long as it does not have too many chunks floating in it. Some of my homebrew friends seem to have been so beaten down by American beers that if my IPAs do not have at least 1 lb of hops and my Stouts are less than 9% with less than 1 lb of Roasted Barley they are not intense enough. Sometimes I wonder if I should give advice based on my experience with home brewing, or hang on on the Beginner's forum asking for help.

 

[Jako]

Google tells me it is only 2,049 miles from my place to Park City. You just need to give me a little lead time on your brew day for me to meet up with you!

Personally I find it hard to get real feedback on my beers and even harder to get specific advice that is not recipe related. My friends and family say my beer is "great" as long as it does not have too many chunks floating in it. Some of my homebrew friends seem to have been so beaten down by American beers that if my IPAs do not have at least 1 lb of hops and my Stouts are less than 9% with less than 1 lb of Roasted Barley they are not intense enough. Sometimes I wonder if I should give advice based on my experience with home brewing, or hang on on the Beginner's forum asking for help.

i noticed this as well. we are lucky in Utah our beer for the most part is still super simple think of craft beer 5 years ago if not more.

Hah park city is super nice temps this time of the year are perfect.

 

[Jako]

this thread has become overwhelming in a good way. i never expected to get this much advise. i am reading it all even if i don't respond thank you!