My homebrew vs commercial brewery beer

[betarhoalphadelta]

Everytime I drink a beer from a brewery I can't help but notice my beers lack that crisp and clean flavor you get on a professional level. Not that my beers are cloudy or still green it's as if the homebrew has more body or something extra within. Is this a result of not filtering my beer? Its Iike I am missing some malt backbone at times.

It could be a lot of things. I agree wholeheartedly with what @mongoose33 said.

Brewing is process-driven. It's basically manufacturing of beer. In manufacturing of most products, there are certain things that are considered "best practices". That's where you start.

Best practices IMHO:

1. Cleaning/sanitation is obvious. If you can't do this, why even brew?
2. Water quality / chemistry - if you live somewhere where you water is "good enough", good for you. If not, invest in RO and added salts.
3. Yeast health - adequate numbers of healthy yeast (starter for liquid or proper amount of dry yeast).
4. Fermentation temperature control - IMHO it is key.
5. Proper transfer procedures (to avoid O2 uptake after fermentation).

Note that there's something missing in all the above. I didn't mention huge stainless steel equipment. I didn't say you have to do HERMS or RIMS. Heck, outside of using good water, very little of what I've said has to do with the actual wort production process itself. We make wort; yeast makes beer. If you want good beer, you make your yeast as happy as you can. A lot of brewers focus on the "bling" of their brew system--and I'll admit showing people pictures of my 3-vessel single tier brew sculpture is a lot more impressive than showing them my fermentation fridge. But it's less important.

As for your own situation, obviously if you haven't gotten #3-5 down, that's where you start. But if you've been around this site a few years, I'm going to assume that you've gotten there. So you might need to look at water chemistry.

My own story: I started brewing in 2006. I had items #3-5 fully nailed down and my process was pretty good by 2008-09 or so. My beers were very good. I considered them "almost" commercial quality, and neutral observers (competition judges, knowledgeable homebrew club members, etc) all were very complimentary. But they weren't quite "there" yet. My dark beers were great; the lighter-color beers (what I brew more often) just weren't perfect.

In 2015, after 9 years of brewing, I switched to RO water. After 9 years, I detected an IMMEDIATE improvement in the quality of my beer. No process change other than water, and those light-color beers which had muted malt flavors just suddenly popped. 9 years and I was honestly blown away by the change.

I think given that I'd worked out the rest of my process to meet most "best practices", that changed moved my beers to what I would consider commercial-quality, up there with what you'd find at any solid craft brewery.

So if you think you've knocked out the low-hanging fruit, I'd take a look at water.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Personally I find it hard to get real feedback on my beers and even harder to get specific advice that is not recipe related. My friends and family say my beer is "great" as long as it does not have too many chunks floating in it. Some of my homebrew friends seem to have been so beaten down by American beers that if my IPAs do not have at least 1 lb of hops and my Stouts are less than 9% with less than 1 lb of Roasted Barley they are not intense enough. Sometimes I wonder if I should give advice based on my experience with home brewing, or hang on on the Beginner's forum asking for help.

A quality homebrew club might help. In my club, we have a number of BJCP judges, and in general a lot of very experienced brewers. If you sit them down and ask for a serious evaluation (beyond just "how is it?"), they'll give you quite a lot.

The other option is beer competitions. If you submit your beer to competition, you'll get an absolutely neutral and objective opinion. Note that the quality of the opinion can vary widely. I recommend submitting the same beer to 3-4 competitions and look for the opinions that are consistent [and agree with your own palate]. You need enough of a sample size to separate signal from the noise.

Another option is to look into BJCP study courses yourself. This is easiest with a homebrew club because if you get 5-10 people as a study group, you'll learn a lot more. We did this a few years ago with my club. One thing you can do is order an "off-flavor" kit which allows you to dose light lagers with off flavors and learn what they actually taste like. That's a huge education right there. But another thing we did was regularly do commercial example tastings (since we were all busy we'd do it late at night virtually via Google Hangouts). Essentially you'd take commercial beers and work out a BJCP score sheet on them, to help you identify and taste the flavors that a judge would be looking for. It improves your palate significantly.

Personally if you go the BJCP study route, you'll learn an IMMENSE amount. I did this although never followed through with becoming BJCP certified, and it improved my own palate significantly.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

A quality homebrew club might help...other option is beer competitions...another option is to look into BJCP study courses yourself.

Good advice there...

I have a regular club I attend with some good brewers and some certified judges. I still feel like at times it is hard to get feedback that is not style/preference driven ("this stout is not roasty enough" when I wanted a mellow Oatmeal Stout, "this IPA is not hoppy enough" because I like IPAs with less than 2 lbs of hops).

I am tempted to enter some competition just as a yardstick on my beers. The downside of competitions can be that beers have to fit into a style to score well, but consistent solid competition scores would at least be a signal that I am on track.

BJCP study is probably something I need to look at. While I feel like I am very critical of my beers, I do struggle with identifying flavors or tying specific flaws back to a possible cause.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I am tempted to enter some competition just as a yardstick on my beers. The downside of competitions can be that beers have to fit into a style to score well, but consistent solid competition scores would at least be a signal that I am on track.

That is true. I've entered one that is being judged this weekend, and I know my blonde--which is a damn delicious beer--is going to get knocked down significantly because it's 40 IBU with a decent hop aroma on it. Definitely not to style. I'm entering 4 beers and I'm already expecting that one to get the worst score.

Still, if you're looking for process-related improvements, or identifying off flavors, the comments might still be helpful.

 

[eric19312]

That is true. I've entered one that is being judged this weekend, and I know my blonde--which is a damn delicious beer--is going to get knocked down significantly because it's 40 IBU with a decent hop aroma on it. Definitely not to style. I'm entering 4 beers and I'm already expecting that one to get the worst score.

Still, if you're looking for process-related improvements, or identifying off flavors, the comments might still be helpful.

I’m curious why enter it as a blonde. No more appropriate style? Maybe APA? It really comes down to matching what your beer drinks like to the style guide and entering it as that beer. What you called it when you designed the recipe is kind of irrelevant.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I’m curious why enter it as a blonde. No more appropriate style? Maybe APA? It really comes down to matching what your beer drinks like to the style guide and entering it as that beer. What you called it when you designed the recipe is kind of irrelevant.

I'm entering a different beer in APA as well, and can only enter one per subcategory. ;-)

Generally an APA should be a little more malty than this beer though. I know it's not required, but by APA generally has some crystal in it and my personal one is 25% rye. At only 3.6 SRM, it's even more pale than APA style guidelines as well, without a strong malt character / 50/50 pale malt and belg. pils.

 

[Jako]

Okay, starting to plan for my next beer. i read a good chunk of Water and lots of New Brewing Lager Beer. i had my water tested. whats next? Anyone have ideas on what beer style i should brew up?

Things i still need to work out but shouldn't be that big of an issue right now is fermenting temp control. my basement temps are very stable at 58. main level of the house is at 65. so keeping the beer close to the same temp within a ale yeast tolerance should be easy.

 

[shoreman]

Things i still need to work out but shouldn't be that big of an issue right now is fermenting temp control. my basement temps are very stable at 58. main level of the house is at 65. so keeping the beer close to the same temp within a ale yeast tolerance should be easy.

Pick an easy to use yeast strain that works well in your temps and really get to know it. Brew with it for a year+. I've been working with the Stone yeast lately, but before that used the Alchemist yeast for about a year and half and it worked super well in my conditions 68degree, sweet spot. I got to know the ins and outs of that yeast and used it mostly on ipas and english styles (which I brew alot of).

 

[Jako]

used the information from this thread and on my visit to my LHBS i ran into our home brewer of the year who also gave me some advice.

i made a brown ale with a 70% tap 30% distilled ratio of water then did basic basic brew salt editions. my efficiency jumped from 70 to 81%. the mash looked better and the wort malt flavor was the best i have experienced with my set up so far. very excited to see how this turns out, i just bought a decent Ph meter.

i did noticed one thing. it looked like the hot break material didn't settle as much it was sitting a lot higher than normal i also used a bit of wheat so who knows.

 

[idylldon]

As a home brewer who turned pro, I second pretty much everything said in this thread so far. Attention to detail is paramount, and if you're not Type-A while you're brewing, it's going to be harder for you to reach your goals regarding the quality of your beers.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: The "forgiveness" of batch size. This is perhaps the most important thing I didn't know before I turned pro. When I went from my 1/2 BBL home-brew system to my 5BBL pub system, I found that there was some "leeway" that I didn't have with the smaller scale. It was easier to control a big batch as opposed to a smaller batch and easier to dial in a final recipe once I had the basic one done. In fact, I never do pilot brews on my home-brew system anymore because I know what's going to happen when I brew on my 5BBL system.

Conditioning. While I can turn around an IPA in a relatively short period of time, most of my beers are aged adequately before they see a tap. I never serve lagers (I do real lagers and pilsners, not "blond" ales) before they've had at least a 60-day lagering period. I also don't filter any of my beer and only use clarifiers (Biofine Clear) on two of my beers, a cherry wheat and my house IPA. Because I age my beers, all of them, with the exception of the styles that should have some cloudiness, are pretty much crystal clear by the time they hit the taps.

Sanitation. Top of the food chain, IMHO. I've had many infected home brews and "professional" brews and it blows my mind a pro brewer can't taste this in his or her finished product. We spend more time cleaning than brewing and our equipment is thoroughly cleaned after every brew day, even if we are doing the second "double batching" brew length the next day. NOTHING is left and allowed to dry out. I'm been amazed by some of the "pro" breweries I've visited and how lax they seem to be on this process. Yes, it's pretty tedious and boring but it's truly what separates the great from the near great. I cannot stress this enough. Before we opened, the investor asked me how many batches I'd have to dump before I was ready. I was stunned by the question and answered, "If I have to dump batches than you've hired the wrong guy." Yeah, I know. That was a bit too confident on my part. Now, knock on wood, I haven't had to dump any batches and we've sold every drop I've brewed. Having said that, though, I know not to get cocky because there's a saying in the business that kind of sums it up: There are two kinds of breweries, one that has had to deal with an infection and one that will have an infection. Since I have a degree in microbiology, I'm perhaps a bit more educated when it comes to how to avoid these problems, but I also know that one minor misstep can make a major difference. It's all about the details.

The other thing I've learned as a pro and why I don't call myself a "brewmaster": To me, brewing is as much art as it is science and I believe you can never really master something as complex as brewing. It's a constant process of discovery, which has helped me retain the same level of interest I had when I started home brewing back in 1989. Every day I walk into the brewery to brew is a good day and I pretty much learn something every damn time. It's this process that makes this career extremely rewarding to me.

Cheers,
--
Don
Head Brewer / Partner
Idyllwild Brewpub

 

[mongoose33]

As a home brewer who turned pro, I second pretty much everything said in this thread so far. Attention to detail is paramount, and if you're not Type-A while you're brewing, it's going to be harder for you to reach your goals regarding the quality of your beers.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: The "forgiveness" of batch size. This is perhaps the most important thing I didn't know before I turned pro. When I went from my 1/2 BBL home-brew system to my 5BBL pub system, I found that there was some "leeway" that I didn't have with the smaller scale. It was easier to control a big batch as opposed to a smaller batch and easier to dial in a final recipe once I had the basic one done. In fact, I never do pilot brews on my home-brew system anymore because I know what's going to happen when I brew on my 5BBL system.

Terrific post.

Why do you think larger batch sizes are more forgiving? This intrigues me. I can guess at some reasons but they're only guesses: missing hops by an ounce in a 5-barrel batch isn't noticeable, but in a 5-gallon batch, probably. Errors in measurement are imperceptible at the larger level, whereas at the homebrew level, they're magnified.

Something like that, or something else?

 

[idylldon]

Terrific post.

Why do you think larger batch sizes are more forgiving? This intrigues me. I can guess at some reasons but they're only guesses: missing hops by an ounce in a 5-barrel batch isn't noticeable, but in a 5-gallon batch, probably. Errors in measurement are imperceptible at the larger level, whereas at the homebrew level, they're magnified.

Something like that, or something else?

It's basically that. I see home brewers (and myself when I was home brewing) measuring down to the gram for this and that, which is not really as important doing a larger batch. Yes, there are still slight batch-to-batch variations when doing larger batches due to the grain, hops, etc., but since it's being "spread out" over a larger volume they are far less perceptible.

Here's a story. My family is from Belgium and I have a lot of relatives there. During one of my visits, I went to a small brewery run by a brewer who works during the day as a master brewer for Duvel. He told me brewing for Duvel was "basically going in, putting my ID card into the master computer, and hitting 'start.'" He started his own small brewery because he wanted to feel as though he was actually brewing and not just monitoring. At one point in our conversation, he said, "A brewery this size (roughly 7BBL) is a 'cameleon' brewery." When I asked why, he replied, "There will always be slight variations when brewing on a smaller system unless you have a complete lab at your disposal. I welcome the slight variations. It makes the beer and brewing more interesting." Now, I took that to heart because he obviously is a "master."

Once I started brewing on the 5BBL at the pub, I remembered that conversation and it led me to lighten up a bit and let the beer be what it wants to be. Of course, I still want it to be in the style I'm shooting for, but pretty much all the time the only way anyone would notice any batch-to-batch variations, and they are always there on my scale, would be to have two batches of the same beer and taste them side to side. Even then, though, I doubt the subtle variations would be discernible to any but the most delicate and refined palate. The interesting byproduct of this comes from my customers, who have never mentioned "this" batch being different from "that" batch. Here's what I've found out from customers: If the beer is cleanly brewed and within the style boundaries (if that's what I'm shooting for), it becomes a matter of whether or not that style appeals to a person's palate or not. It's not a "good" or a "bad" beer; it's one that either "tastes" good to someone or not. It's all pretty subjective in the end.

In some ways, I think brewing on a larger system is easier than doing 5-gallon batches, and it's definitely more forgiving based on my experience.

Cheers,
--
Don

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

i made a brown ale with a 70% tap 30% distilled ratio of water then did basic basic brew salt editions. my efficiency jumped from 70 to 81%. the mash looked better and the wort malt flavor was the best i have experienced with my set up so far. very excited to see how this turns out, i just bought a decent Ph meter.

Yeah, I thought you might see some improvement via water. If you find that you want to continue with the water, I would recommend going to 100% distilled or RO and then adding the minerals you desire. That way you will always have 100% repeatable results, as you'll know that you're starting from scratch.

Glad to hear it's promising, and hope to hear good news once you complete fermentation and get a taste!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

As a home brewer who turned pro, I second pretty much everything said in this thread so far. Attention to detail is paramount, and if you're not Type-A while you're brewing, it's going to be harder for you to reach your goals regarding the quality of your beers.

Very cool. I agree completely. I--much like @mongoose33 --strongly believe in the "continuous improvement" model of brewing. Always think about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how it can be improved. Sometimes an improvement may only give you a 0.25% improvement in the beer, but enough of those 0.25% improvements add up.

Also, depending on schedule I might be heading to Idyllwild in August, and if so will definitely seek out your brewpub.

 

[Jako]

It's basically that. I see home brewers (and myself when I was home brewing) measuring down to the gram for this and that, which is not really as important doing a larger batch. Yes, there are still slight batch-to-batch variations when doing larger batches due to the grain, hops, etc., but since it's being "spread out" over a larger volume they are far less perceptible.

Here's a story. My family is from Belgium and I have a lot of relatives there. During one of my visits, I went to a small brewery run by a brewer who works during the day as a master brewer for Duvel. He told me brewing for Duvel was "basically going in, putting my ID card into the master computer, and hitting 'start.'" He started his own small brewery because he wanted to feel as though he was actually brewing and not just monitoring. At one point in our conversation, he said, "A brewery this size (roughly 7BBL) is a 'cameleon' brewery." When I asked why, he replied, "There will always be slight variations when brewing on a smaller system unless you have a complete lab at your disposal. I welcome the slight variations. It makes the beer and brewing more interesting." Now, I took that to heart because he obviously is a "master."

Once I started brewing on the 5BBL at the pub, I remembered that conversation and it led me to lighten up a bit and let the beer be what it wants to be. Of course, I still want it to be in the style I'm shooting for, but pretty much all the time the only way anyone would notice any batch-to-batch variations, and they are always there on my scale, would be to have two batches of the same beer and taste them side to side. Even then, though, I doubt the subtle variations would be discernible to any but the most delicate and refined palate. The interesting byproduct of this comes from my customers, who have never mentioned "this" batch being different from "that" batch. Here's what I've found out from customers: If the beer is cleanly brewed and within the style boundaries (if that's what I'm shooting for), it becomes a matter of whether or not that style appeals to a person's palate or not. It's not a "good" or a "bad" beer; it's one that either "tastes" good to someone or not. It's all pretty subjective in the end.

In some ways, I think brewing on a larger system is easier than doing 5-gallon batches, and it's definitely more forgiving based on my experience.

Cheers,
--
Don

very interesting! thank you for sharing the pub looks incredible and plan on stopping buy next time i visit my family in that area.

 

[Jako]

Yeah, I thought you might see some improvement via water. If you find that you want to continue with the water, I would recommend going to 100% distilled or RO and then adding the minerals you desire. That way you will always have 100% repeatable results, as you'll know that you're starting from scratch.

Glad to hear it's promising, and hope to hear good news once you complete fermentation and get a taste!

i called my builder the other day and told him i wanted a RO system in the brewery. i plan to have it run to a pot filler so my days of lifting things are over.

 

[eric19312]

but pretty much all the time the only way anyone would notice any batch-to-batch variations, and they are always there on my scale, would be to have two batches of the same beer and taste them side to side. Even then, though, I doubt the subtle variations would be discernible to any but the most delicate and refined palate.

I notice differences in batches at my local brewery but I am there frequently and mainly drink only a couple of their 10-11 beers so I've gotten to know them. Mostly these differences have to do with age of the beer. They do move a lot of beer and keep things fresh especially in the summer but we are a summer town and in the winter sometimes beers will start to show a little age. Not bad but especially in the IPAs the hop aromas will be different between a batch that has been pouring for the last 2 months and a fresh batch coming on. I feel these differences are part of the experience and agree with your Duval brewer...they make the beer interesting.

 

[idylldon]

I notice differences in batches at my local brewery but I am there frequently and mainly drink only a couple of their 10-11 beers so I've gotten to know them. Mostly these differences have to do with age of the beer. They do move a lot of beer and keep things fresh especially in the summer but we are a summer town and in the winter sometimes beers will start to show a little age. Not bad but especially in the IPAs the hop aromas will be different between a batch that has been pouring for the last 2 months and a fresh batch coming on. I feel these differences are part of the experience and agree with your Duval brewer...they make the beer interesting.

Yes, good point. As we all know, age does change a beer but usually for the better unless, as you pointed out, it's a highly hopped style. We have 21 house-brewed beers on tap (max of 3 IPAs at any given point in time) and I usually have two or three "on deck" waiting for a tap to open up, which means we rotate some beers of the same batch off and on tap during the changing seasons. One thing I was worried about early on was how long I could keep a kegged beer before it turned the corner to where I didn't want to serve it. So far, though, that hasn't been a problem. For example, I have a light summer wheat that I took off the tap line back in October. I recently put it back on for summer and was surprised by how well it held up; in fact, I noticed very little if any change. That was something I was unprepared for but pleasantly pleased by. Of course, I expect the higher-gravity beers I brew to hang in there over time but the summer wheat wasn't a style I thought would survive over the winter months without having some flavor degradation. Like I said in a previous post, though, I'm always learning. On a profession level, it's really easy to minimize O2 pickup and that lends a lot to the possibility of having a beer survive some tap "dormancy."

Cheers,
--
Don