My First Foray into Belgian Strongs

[DeathBrewer]

Ahem. 123456

Many people still disagree with you due to personal experience.

 

[PseudoChef]

Many people still disagree with you due to personal experience.

If they're going to disagree, I hope it's from personal experience. I just have a big problem with the people who disagree because they heard people say it from somewhere or someone else who heard it somewhere else, yadda yadda, without trying it themselves.

Personal experience is where it's at - there's no substitute, and I can't sway their minds, nor am I setting out to.

 

[z987k]

I do. From personal experience, if a high percentage of the fermentables are simple sugars, especially sucrose. It has off flavors.

Normally when other people tell me "from personal experience" it means as much as my mom telling my how to brew. I mean, how do I know that everything else they do is correct in any way. Now if I know you can brew or you document and can repeat it and know why then that's a different story.

 

[BierMuncher]

Ummm. Did I miss something somewhere....???

I mean...isn't this thread about me?

C'mon you guys. Yer distracting the audience from my good side here....

 

[Bob]

Which side is that? Left, right, or back?

[ducking]

Seriously, I think your grist is too complex. If Pierre Rajotte is to be believed, many Belgian examples of the style have Pils and dark candisuiker, hops and yeast. That's it.

I've brewed Dubbel like that, and it turned out fine, malty and wonderful: enough Pils malt and dark candisuiker to reach ~17°P and ~20 SRM. Done.

YMMV!

Bob

 

[z987k]

I've brewed Dubbel like that, and it turned out fine, malty and wonderful: enough Pils malt and dark candisuiker to reach ~17°P and ~20 SRM. Done.

This is true.

 

[Poobah58]

Really close to our recipe. We use pilsner, munich, aromatic, biscuit, caramunich, special-b, wheat and dark candi syrup. Our hop schedule is styrian@ FWH & 60 and Hallertauer or Tett @20 & 10. We used the same yeast also. I say go for it as you posted!

 

[BierMuncher]

Really close to our recipe. We use pilsner, munich, aromatic, biscuit, caramunich, special-b, wheat and dark candi syrup. Our hop schedule is styrian@ FWH & 60 and Hallertauer or Tett @20 & 10. We used the same yeast also. I say go for it as you posted!

Good timing. I crushed last night.

Ended up subbing out the biscuit for caramunich 60 and upped the aromatic to .5#

All else stayed the same except I'm using the Golden Promise I just picked up.

Heading out to the LHBS for the yeast at lunch (smack pack) and will probably brew tonight.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

BM,
What type of mash are you doing? Are the Begians often decoction mashes? I'm doing a Dubbel tomorrow (c'mon starter!...gogogogogog ) and was gonna do a decoction...unless it's inappropriate in a Dubbel.

 

[BierMuncher]

BM,
What type of mash are you doing? Are the Begians often decoction mashes? I'm doing a Dubbel tomorrow (c'mon starter!...gogogogogog ) and was gonna do a decoction...unless it's inappropriate in a Dubbel.

Decoction is appropriate I just don't have the step-fire setup since I'm a cooler guy. That's why the addition of the vienna and munich.

I'll do a single infusion at 149 for 90 minutes.

 

[TrojanMan]

Don't listen to the sugar haters.

Almost any 100% fermentable sugar is fine. Corn sugar/dextrose is cheap and offers a good bit of peace of mind, since most of us use it for priming/bottling anyhow. The dark candi sugar is nice and does add a nice carmel taste to the beer (excellent in a dubbel) but it is pricey and you can get the same flavors with a bit of LME or specialty grain. Sucrose often has a bad name for producing off flavors but I think if you make syrup with it first and then add it, you'll see far fewer issues.

The real thing with a good Belgian is that you want both high attenuation and high original gravity. That means you NEED to use sugar for often up to 20% of the fermentables in order to get the gravity you need while still getting good attenuation. Stan Heironymous calls it "digestable," that the beer should be flavorful but not heavy.

A technique I like is to brew using your grain and add just a bit of sugar in the kettle. Make simple syrup with dextrose and keep it on hand in a sanitary container (I use a thermos, just because it has a nice rubber seal on it). After primary fermentation slows, take your gravity reading and see where your attenuation is. Once you hit about 70-75%, go ahead and add some syrup to top your carboy back up (CO2 production will drop the level). Fermentation should kick back up for another week or so. Check your gravity again and you should note that the added sugar should have fermented out almost completely since you pitched 100% fermentable sugar onto some very active yeast. It's a simple way to boost your gravity without compromising attenuation.


Overall, though, don't be afraid of sugar. The last thing you want is a malt bomb that's thick and tough to drink. A Belgian should feel "sessionable," even if it's 8.5% or so.

If you're going to be careful with a Belgian, it should be with spices. If a blind taster can name a spice, you used too much of it. Use spices of course, but sparingly only as a neat counterpoint. Personally, I really like fresh-minced ginger (1 oz. or less), two or three cloves, bitter orange peel (1oz. or less) and cardamom (rough grind, 1/4 oz. or less). Put them in a sachet and add during the last 10 minutes or so of the boil. It'll add some depth and complexity to the (already fantastic) yeast character without being obvious.


Anyhow, that's just MHO. Don't be afraid of sugar.

 

[BierMuncher]

...Anyhow, that's just MHO. Don't be afraid of sugar.

Great info and very nicely put.

 

[PseudoChef]

Decoction is appropriate I just don't have the step-fire setup since I'm a cooler guy. That's why the addition of the vienna and munich.

I'll do a single infusion at 149 for 90 minutes.

The beauty of decoction is you don't need a "step-fire." I decoct in my cooler mash tun by mashing in at my first rest (~122 for protein rest), scoop out the amount of grains into a separate pot, boil for the requisite time, add back to the cooler to bring the temp to the next rest, repeat, etc.

 

[BierMuncher]

The beauty of decoction is you don't need a "step-fire." I decoct in my cooler mash tun by mashing in at my first rest (~122 for protein rest), scoop out the amount of grains into a separate pot, boil for the requisite time, add back to the cooler to bring the temp to the next rest, repeat, etc.

I've had a hard time wrapping my mind around that process.

So I've got a 15 pound grist for a 5.5 gallon batch.

I strike the entire mash to get to 122 degrees and hold for how long?
I scoop out...let's say...a large sauce pot of the thickest part of the mash.
I bring that portion of the mash to a boil for how long?
Then I add it back to the mash tun in order to bring it up to target conversion of 150?

Question...(besides the "how longs"), by bringing that partial portion to a boil, don't you loose the conversion capacity because you went right from 122 to a boil?

 

[flyangler18]

I've had a hard time wrapping my mind around that process.

So I've got a 15 pound grist for a 5.5 gallon batch.

I strike the entire mash to get to 122 degrees and hold for how long?
I scoop out...let's say...a large sauce pot of the thickest part of the mash.
I bring that portion of the mash to a boil for how long?
Then I add it back to the mash tun in order to bring it up to target conversion of 150?

Question...(besides the "how longs"), by bringing that partial portion to a boil, don't you loose the conversion capacity because you went right from 122 to a boil?

The timeliness of your questions are spot-on, BM; I've been flirting with decoctions for a while, but just haven't figured out the nuts n' bolts yet. I look forwards to Pseudo's reply. I mean, hell, if I can simplify my grist even further and just rely on decoction for those melanoidins.....

 

[DeathBrewer]

ProMash will tell you how to use a decoction mash. It'll tell you how much to pull out depending on how thick it is and what temp you want to get to (i would stick with the standard "medium" thickness to start, which is the current ratio of your mash.)

i'd suggest the following:

1. Hold your 122°F for 30 minutes.
2. Decoct appropriate amount and bring to 149°F (mash temp) for 10 minutes, then raise to boiling. Boil for 15-30 minutes.
3. Add decoction back to mash and stir in to equalize temp.

 

[BierMuncher]

I think I found the answers to my own questions...at least as far as a single decoction goes.

• Strike entire mash to reach a 125(ish) resting temp for 20 minutes.
• Stir then draw off about 1/3rd of the thicker portion and put in pot.
• Raise temperature of the decoction (slowly to avoid scorching) until it reaches your desired mash temp. In this case...150 degrees.
• Let decoction rest for 20 minutes.
• Flame on and raise temp slowly until mix begins to boil.
• Boil for 20-30 minutes, stirring constantly.
• Add decoction back to main mash and pray to the beer Gods that your overall temp hits the 150 target. Adjust with hot or cold water accordingly.

...at least I think that's the general idea.

 

[PseudoChef]

DB has it pretty much, so I can't really add more, flyangler I would only hold a protein rest around 15 minutes though, or else it can start killing your head retention.

But just as the amount of water you add at a specific temperature affects how you sparge or mash-out, the amount of grains you pull from the tun and heat/boil affect the stabilisation of the mash when you add them back. It's basically a way to step mash when you can't direct-fire.

You just need to stir the bejesus out of the decocted portion that you are heating or you will scorch.

Or, you can just forget this crap and use some meladoinin

 

[flyangler18]

ProMash will tell you how to use a decoction mash. It'll tell you how much to pull out depending on how thick it is and what temp you want to get to (i would stick with the standard "medium" thickness to start, which is the current ratio of your mash.).

But I don't use ProMash.

Gotta check out BTP and see what it'll tell me.

 

[DeathBrewer]

BeerSmith will do it, too. Or you could just follow this: Decoction Mashing (first on google)

Or you could get ProMash because it is teh awesome

What is BTP?

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I'm sure you'll end up with a very good beer BM, but you would be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't also brew the same recipe with a pils base and then compare them.

A Pils base, along with yeast, are the most distinctive characteristics of Belgians IMO. If you replicate it with pils I would recommend a 90 minute boil to drive off DMS.

 

[flyangler18]

What is BTP?

Beer Tools Pro. :rockin:

 

[ohiobrewtus]

BeerSmith will do it, too. Or you could just follow this: Decoction Mashing (first on google)

Or you could get ProMash because it is teh awesome

What is BTP?

I believe all of the 3 widely used brewing applications will calculate a decoction schedule for you.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

A few things:

I don't have to stir my decoction very much but I was careful with the heat. There is no scorching. I pull as thick a decoction as I can (I actually decant liquid from each saucepot-full) but then I infuse the decoction with boiling water to get it up to a high sacc rest as fast as possible. I want to get to the boil ASAP.

You don't have to convert every last bit in the decoction...and just mash it high so it converts as fast as possible. It will all get converted in the 'main' sacc rest anyway.

I would make the decoction big enough so that it overshoots your target mash temp...then just add it back slowly and let the remainder cool to your mash temp before adding the rest.

Check the aroma at 10/20/30 minutes. I probably wouldn't even bother with a decoction if I wasn't going to boil it for at least 20 minutes and almost always 30 or more. The killer aroma really starts kicking in @ about 20 minutes.

 

[z987k]

I think I found the answers to my own questions...at least as far as a single decoction goes.

• Strike entire mash to reach a 125(ish) resting temp for 20 minutes.
• Stir then draw off about 1/3rd of the thicker portion and put in pot.
• Raise temperature of the decoction (slowly to avoid scorching) until it reaches your desired mash temp. In this case...150 degrees.
• Let decoction rest for 20 minutes.
• Flame on and raise temp slowly until mix begins to boil.
• Boil for 20-30 minutes, stirring constantly.
• Add decoction back to main mash and pray to the beer Gods that your overall temp hits the 150 target. Adjust with hot or cold water accordingly.

...at least I think that's the general idea.

you should mash your decoction higher... say 158 to get it to convert faster. Since you're holding it there for a much shorter time. You're going to put it back in the main mash anyways, so there will still be some beta that can help break it down further.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

What temp are you fermenting BM? Do you have a predicted AA%? And how long before you bottle? My Dubbel ended up a little higher than I expected (1.070 vs. expected 1.068). Yours was 1.076?

 

[BierMuncher]

What temp are you fermenting BM? Do you have a predicted AA%? And how long before you bottle? My Dubbel ended up a little higher than I expected (1.070 vs. expected 1.068). Yours was 1.076?

I came in at 1.075.
I mashed at 149 for 90 minutes.
My pitching temp was 64 degrees.
The ambient room temp right now is 62.
Over 36 hours, the wort worked its way from 64 to 66. Fermentation was/is vigorous, but not explosive.
Over the next 4-5 days, I'll employ a space heater to raise the temp slowly to 72 degrees.
I'll probably get it up to 74 for the last few days and then let it return to ambient temp for a couple weeks.
Smells like @ss.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Looks good! I did my combo infusion/decoction mash. Mine wasn't an explosive fermentation either...just vigorous. I'm hoping the temp increase for this brew can also serve as a diacetyl rest for the Pacman Ale I did the weekend before.

I have the exact same temp probe...do you have problems with the sensor probe if the crimped-end gets submersed? I have two of these and one got real inaccurate after a brew session where it was submersed for a while. It was def the probe and not the electronics part. So now I never let the crimped end get submersed...but maybe that was just one bad probe.

 

[woollybugger2]

I just love Chimay, Orval, and Westmall Triples, that's why I got into homebrewing.

My first brew was Tripel des Deesses from High Gravity Brew.

I made a few mistakes, this being my first ever brew, but the beer is now in it's second week of conditioning and it is just AWESOME. Not only does it taste GREAT, but it gives you a happy buzz, unlike any commercial brew!

I'm (and so are my friends) thrilled with it!

=====================

Bottled: Belgian Triple Ale
Secondary: Hefeweizen
Primary: Brown Ale
On Deck: Smoked Porter

 

[BierMuncher]

...do you have problems with the sensor probe if the crimped-end gets submersed?...So now I never let the crimped end get submersed...but maybe that was just one bad probe.

The crimped end is not designed to get submerged. If that happens, place the probe into an oven and heat to 375 degrees. Once the thermometer hits the 350 mark, the probe will reset itself.

I've done this on a number of occasions.