My First Foray into Belgian Strongs

[BierMuncher]

Every time I crack a bottle of Chimay Red or even an Ommegang Abbey I ask myself "why am I not brewing this?".

I can't wait any longer. I know it will be prime about the time of summer, but I don't care. I gotta get me some of that sweet, fruity Belgian going or I'm going to go broke next winter.

Pretty standard recipe but I'm open to thoughts.

Dubbel-Yer Pleasure


Batch Size: 5.75 gal
Boil Size: 7.81 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated Color: 14.1 SRM

Estimated IBU: 23.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes




10.50 lb Golden Promise (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Removed
0.50 lb Caramunich 60 (60.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)

1.50 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (70 min)
0.50 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min)

1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM)
5.0 Oz Cane Sugar

1 Pkgs Belgian Ale (Wyeast Labs #1214) Yeast-Ale

 

[flyangler18]

Ditch the clear candi sugar and use the D Candi Syrup, or you can invert the sugar yourself. Corn syrup + DAP + heat and you can make candi syrup for a couple dollars.

As far as your grainbill, I think you're on the right track, sorta. Special B and Aromatic are just awesome in a Dubbel, but I don't see need for the Vienna and Biscuit. Pils should be the base malt.

 

[Parker36]

I think the hopping is too low, I like for there to be more balance to the sweetness, but I know some people disagree. Also look into Styrian Goldings. Awesome hops for Belgians.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Base malt should definitely be pilsner.

Mash low (148°F) to make it highly fermentable.

Cut down on the Vienna and Munich. Between that and aromatic, it will be too malty.

Hop additions look fine to me, but I will second the Styrian Goldings. I used them in several belgians last year and it's a perfect hop IMO.

I prefer the WLP550 for a very clean ale that still has the belgian characteristics. Most others prefer something fruitier.

One thing to do is to step up the strong ales. Let it ferment clean as an all-grain at about 65°F for a couple of days, and then let it rise up near 70°F and add your sugar. Fermentation will be faster and cleaner.

 

[Parker36]

Ooooo I forgot about temp - the most important thing when dealign with Belgians after the yeast (I like your choice, byt the way, the classic CHimay strain, can't go wrong). I would pitch at 68 and let it get up into the high 70s or low 80s if you like that fruity taste.

+1 on mashing low, but I wouldn't worry with stepping up. It really isn't that huge of a beer and the yeast are built to handle it without stepping up

 

[BierMuncher]

Good stuff.

No Pils on hand but I just picked up a sack of Golden Promise.

I'd planned on inverting myself so I'll just cook it a bit longer.

The IBU's are right at the top range (23.4 vs 25).

I've seen a lot of recipes with Victory (which I don't have), but Biscuit is a decent sub.

No Stryian in stock, but going with a suitable noble hop instead.

Munich and Vienna...hmmm...I do love those grains and they're not unheard of...but maybe I'll switch out for some Caramunich. I want that dried fruit flavor.

Oh...and I plan on bottle conditioning this batch.

 

[z987k]

Ditch the clear candi sugar and use the D Candi Syrup, or you can invert the sugar yourself. Corn syrup + DAP + heat and you can make candi syrup for a couple dollars.

As far as your grainbill, I think you're on the right track, sorta. Special B and Aromatic are just awesome in a Dubbel, but I don't see need for the Vienna and Biscuit. Pils should be the base malt.

I don't think corn syrup would work. Candy Sugar is made by inverting sucrose (a glucose+fructose molecule) corn syrup is almost entirely glucose.

 

[BierMuncher]

I don't think corn syrup would work. Candy Sugar is made by inverting sucrose (a glucose+fructose molecule) corn syrup is almost entirely glucose.

I'm going with cane sugar and some lemon juice.

 

[DeathBrewer]

I don't think corn syrup would work. Candy Sugar is made by inverting sucrose (a glucose+fructose molecule) corn syrup is almost entirely glucose.

I'm sure he was talking about these guys:

inverting sugar yourself will give you the cleanest flavor. And really, it's not about adding flavor...it's about lightening the brew.

Cane sugar will work fine. What is the lemon juice for? Haven't heard of that...

 

[z987k]

No he mentioned making candy syrup from corn syrup, which I don't believe works at all. Not some bought product.

The lemon juice is the acid to help with the inversion. Some people also use cream of tartar.

 

[Revvy]

Lemon juice is the acid to help the invert...I've used that as well as cream of tartar...

And FLyangler does use regular corn syrup when making his candi syrup, we talked about it when I was making my Belgian Dark...

I have gret hopes for this recipe BM....Since I inevitably go to your pull downs when I don't feel like coming up with my own recipes.

 

[DeathBrewer]

AHH, gotcha on the lemon juice. corn syrup...huh.

 

[bierhaus15]

If you have not already bought the yeast, I would seriously consider getting a packet of 3787 Trappist high gravity. Not only will you get complex-fruity esters but it is probably the best Belgian yeast out there in terms of attenuation. I have made (AG) 2 dubbels and a quad with it, and all my beers finished with an FG below 1.010. My 1.090 got down to 1.008 in 2 weeks at 65f and has no alcohol bite, even though its 10.8%.

 

[flyangler18]

Regarding the corn syrup: it's actually Randy Mosher's technique, and I've done it several times with excellent results.

Making Belgian Candi Syrup
by Randy Mosher

Just take a pound of plain corn syrup (make sure it's the kind without vanilla added) and heat it over medium heat in a heavy saucepan with 9 grams of ammonium carbonate (sold as leavening in Middle Eastern markets). I have also gotten good results with diammonium phosphate yeast nutrient. It will boil, and eventually start to darken. Every now and then remove a drop or two and drip it onto aluminum foil to cool, then taste. Stop as soon as the desired color is reached, and carefully add water to mix it back to the original consistency.

http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/candi_sugar.html

 

[BierMuncher]

If you have not already bought the yeast, I would seriously consider getting a packet of 3787 Trappist high gravity. Not only will you get complex-fruity esters but it is probably the best Belgian yeast out there in terms of attenuation. I have made (AG) 2 dubbels and a quad with it, and all my beers finished with an FG below 1.010. My 1.090 got down to 1.008 in 2 weeks at 65f and has no alcohol bite, even though its 10.8%.

Good feedback. I'll keep that in mind. I do like the fruity's.

 

[PseudoChef]

+1 to using corn syrup. I made a bunch of dark syrups and sugars last year and we tasted them at a club meeting. The syrup made from corn syrup was the winner in the flavor dept.

 

[DeathBrewer]

You're missing the point. You want the sugar to impart as little flavor as possible.

 

[BierMuncher]

You're missing the point. You want the sugar to impart as little flavor as possible.

I have to believe that the addition of an amber or dark invert sugar would taste different than adding clear invert. I know my Ole Speckled Hen had a very unique molasses tone to it that was nice...and definitely came from the amber invert (2 pounds I think) that I added.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Indeed. I keep thinking you're doing a golden strong, but this is more of a dubbel...



The clear invert sugar will impart almost no flavor and will ferment very clean. The darker sugars definitely add some character.

EDIT: I personally would still use the clear, even in a dubbel. The sugar flavors have never been altogether pleasurable in my experience.

 

[PseudoChef]

The sugar flavors have never been altogether pleasurable in my experience.

You need to make a beer of just 50:50 pils/2-row and a bottle or two of the D2 syrup. Ferment with your favorite belgian strain. I think that would change your mind

 

[babalu87]

Table sugar FTW

 

[z987k]

Table sugar FTW

in small amounts it can work ok.

But here's the thing on corn syrup. Can you heat it and caramelize it? Yes. Can you invert it... no. Corn syrup is almost entirely just glucose. Sucrose has a fructose and glucose molecule bonded. You are breaking that bond. You can't break a bond that doesn't exist nor can you make fructose magically appear with heat and acid. Ergo you can not make real candy sugar with corn syrup.

 

[flyangler18]

But here's the thing on corn syrup. Can you heat it and caramelize it? Yes. Can you invert it... no. Corn syrup is almost entirely just glucose. Sucrose has a fructose and glucose molecule bonded. You are breaking that bond. You can't break a bond that doesn't exist nor can you make fructose magically appear with heat and acid. Ergo you can not make real candy sugar with corn syrup.

I'll give you that, but it's got great flavor and makes a kick-ass dubbel just the same. And that's the bottom line, right?

Incidentally, the section on sugar in BLAM also references Mosher's method.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I don't see it in the store but if you could get High Fructose Corn Syrup then you'd have the fructose. My store didn't even have regular corn syrup that wasn't vanilla flavored.

You don't need the acid to make dark candi syrup. The Dark Candi, Inc. syrups are allegedly made with 100% pure beet sugar and nothing else. If you go to their site and look at the specs for the syrups they give the sucrose/fructose/glucose in % and it's usually about a 2:1:1 ratio. I made my own and showed a pic in this thread but having never used either the regular D or D2 syrups I can't really say what I made in terms of 'how ripe is the fruit'.

However, my understanding was that the dark candi syrup was for Dubbels and not Tripels. I thought Tripels were mostly base grain (which is Pils, mashed low for fermentability) and cane sugar with minimal amounts of any specialty/color grains. The recipe here looks more Dubbel-y than Tripel-y but I'm new to Belgians so maybe I have it wrong. Do some Tripels use the dark candi syrup?

I'm making a Dubbel this weekend and a Tripel two weeks from this weekend. My Tripel is gonna be just Belgian Pils, a little Carapils, and cane sugar (WY3787). The Dubbel is mostly Pils with just a little Aro/Mun/Spec B and using half dark candi syrup and half cane sugar (WY1762). I'm decocting both and sacc resting low.

 

[PseudoChef]

in small amounts it can work ok.

But here's the thing on corn syrup. Can you heat it and caramelize it? Yes. Can you invert it... no. Corn syrup is almost entirely just glucose. Sucrose has a fructose and glucose molecule bonded. You are breaking that bond. You can't break a bond that doesn't exist nor can you make fructose magically appear with heat and acid. Ergo you can not make real candy sugar with corn syrup.

Why is it so important that you have something that is inverted? Inverting is something that is done to make the sugars easier to metabolise by the yeast. When there's only one type of sugar molecule, then it's already at it's most simple state for yeast consumption.

Either way, yeast have the requisite invertase enzyme if they ever need to break a disaccarride bond. Unless you are striving for color and flavor from a syrup or sugar, there is no need to invert any sugar in a brew.

 

[BierMuncher]

Here's an interesting read on Invert.

I'm inverting to derive color and flavor.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

That is an interesting read...looks like they have a bit of an agenda but still very interesting.

I'm inverting to derive color and flavor.

Meter pegged.

FWIW, A diabetic guy I work with says that for him and his body: sugar is sugar. I specifically asked about HFCS/Honey/Fructose and that was his response.

 

[z987k]

Why is it so important that you have something that is inverted? Inverting is something that is done to make the sugars easier to metabolise by the yeast. When there's only one type of sugar molecule, then it's already at it's most simple state for yeast consumption.

Either way, yeast have the requisite invertase enzyme if they ever need to break a disaccarride bond. Unless you are striving for color and flavor from a syrup or sugar, there is no need to invert any sugar in a brew.

The importance of having the sucrose inverted is to make it easier for the yeast cells to use it. Yes they can make their own invertase, but if you've ever used high amounts of table sugar in your beer, you know that makes an undesirable taste.
Now past that all I'm saying is corn syrup and candy sugar are going to taste very different on their own(fructose is sweeter than glucose), and in the end should impart a slightly different flavor in the finished product. Aside from that fact that they should both be around 99% fermentable.

Thanks for the pdf BM.

 

[PseudoChef]

Yes they can make their own invertase, but if you've ever used high amounts of table sugar in your beer, you know that makes an undesirable taste.

Ahem. 123456

 

[z987k]

you should try this belgian strong dark I made. It's awful, and I can tell it's the sugar. It doesn't taste cidery per say, but it's off. It was simpply too much sugar though, not that sucrose is such a bad thing. I usually put about a half pound in my wit.

Plus it could be argued that adding sucrose to the boil will invert it on it's own. You have wort(an acidic solution) and you have heat. That's all it takes.