My beer is green!!!

[alemonkey]

Brewed an american wheat yesterday, same reciped as I've used before. The only difference was I used a copper scrubby as a screen on the end of my pickup tube in the kettle. It worked great, but I noticed my hot break had a bluish tint to it, and now the beer in the fermenter has a very ugly green color!

I'm not sure if this is verdigris, which I've heard is poisonous, or what. The last time I made this beer it had a very slight green tint going into the carboy (when finished the beer is a very pale, light yellow color). This is WAY greener.

I didn't think about pre-boiling the scrubby before using it. Assuming the green color settles out, do you think I have introduced anything truly nasty into my beer? The wort tasted fine, and it smells good coming out of the airlock. It's fermenting nicely this morning, just looks really funny.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Sounds like a bummer. I don't know what to tell you...I'd like to help, but I can't...I'm just here for moral support.

If you "think" it's poisonous then I'd dump it and IMMEDIATELY stop using that practice.

 

[alemonkey]

The thing is, I've read where a lot of people use them to filter coming out of the kettle.

I don't think it could be verdigris, because AFAIK that forms with time and exposure to oxygen. I'm betting it's due to loose copper from the surface of the scrubby boiling off into the work.

Hopefully someone here has used the same method and can give me some reassurance.

Oh, and thanks for the moral support

 

[user 574]

No reassurance here either. I used the copper scrubby 1st time as well in my kettle but haven't drank any of that beer yet. It's in the secondary. being a SNPA'ish color I probably wouldn't notice a green tint. I can't believe that the little copper scrubbie in a 7g boil would affect the color though.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Sounds like copper sulphate (CuSO4) got in there which is blue. Yellow+Blue=green. Beer+CuSO4=St.Paddy's day brew
Did you treat your water with Gypsum (CaSO4), or epsom salts (MgSO4)? You got too many Cu ions bouncing around in there somehow.

Check the MSDS on CuSO4 to see if your gonna die from it...

 

[Mikey]

If you used pellet hops, it's the debris floating around. All my beers look slightly 'Irish' when they go int the fermenter. It will settle out.

 

[homebrewer_99]

You got too many Cu ions bouncing around in there somehow.

So, what's he do...cash them in for a dime? Copper can be as dangerous as lead, right? Isn't that why you shouldn't brew in copper kettles?

 

[user 574]

Re: Copper. Why do so many breweries use the old copper kettles?

 

[homebrewer_99]

Re: Copper. Why do so many breweries use the old copper kettles?

...probably because they're only copper on the outside, not inside...

 

[david_42]

Copper is relatively stable and most of the time using copper kettles/pipes/scrubbies aren't a problem. The safe level is on the order of 1mg/L (1 ppm) People can taste copper in much lower concentrations.

Bottom line: if it doesn't taste metallic, you're fine.

 

[Lounge Lizard]

The safe level is on the order of 1mg/L (1 ppm) People can taste copper in much lower concentrations.

Doesn't 1mg translate to 1/1000 of a gram? That seems different from one part(s) per million.

Just wondering if I remember correctly...

 

[Beer Snob]

On top of which every book I've come across that mentions copper brew pots say they are THEY BEST to use. Just generally are cost prohibitive for us small guys.

 

[david_42]

1 milligram per Liter is 1/1000 of a gram per 1000 grams = 1 ppm.

 

[Lounge Lizard]

1 milligram per Liter is 1/1000 of a gram per 1000 grams = 1 ppm.

That makes sense assuming 1 milligram equals 1 milliliter. Not sure if that matches, but I see where you are coming from...

Back to mowing the yard...

 

[Levers101]

Well, if it is copper in your brew, look at it this way: you'll never have a problem with mold (or algae) as copper compounds are used as fungicides (and algaecides).
Wouldn't verdigris be more likely after fermentation from the production of acetic acid? I wouldn't think you'd have much acetic acid in wort, and the presence of acetic acid in beer is bad anyways... but I'm not going to say its safe. I'd probably err on the side of safety and give it the heave ho if you think its verdigris. As metal-organic complexes are generally much more toxic than inorganic metal salts, ie methylmercury and tetraethyl lead.

 

[alemonkey]

I did add some gypsum to my brew water.

I think I'll let it ferment out and see what it looks like when it's done. Since it doesn't taste metallic I'll keep it if it looks ok. If it's still green I'll toss it.

Here's the MSDS:

Health Hazards Acute & Chronic: RESPIRATORY TRACT, EYES, SKIN IRRITANT. CAN BE CONSIDERED TOXIC.

Signs & Symptoms of Overexposure:
INHALATION: CONGESTION & BREATHING DIFFICULTY. SKIN: IRRITATION, ITCHING, &/OR RASH. EYES: IRRITATION & INFLAMMATION. INGESTION: STOMACH PAIN, NAUSEA, AND VOMITING.

So, basically the same thing that happens when I drink anyway

Medical Conditions Aggravated by Exposure:
PERSONS W/HISTORY OF CHRONIC RESPIRATORY, SKIN, &/OR WILSON'S DISEASE.

Wilson's Disease? Does that make you peek over top of fences into your neighbor's yard?

LD50 LC50 Mixture: N/K

Route of Entry Indicators:
Inhalation: YES
Skin: YES
Ingestion: YES

Carcenogenicity Indicators
NTP: NO
IARC: NO
OSHA: NO

That's reassuring

Carcinogenicity Explanation: NONE

 

[alemonkey]

Ok, so here's question #2:

Assuming it is CuSO4 from adding gypsum to the brew water and reacting with the copper scrubby, is there anything I can add to the beer that will bind with it and drop it out of suspension?

 

[Beer Snob]

That makes sense assuming 1 milligram equals 1 milliliter. Not sure if that matches, but I see where you are coming from...

Back to mowing the yard...

No, you are correct it doesn't. One is a weight and one is a volume.

It's kinda like one of the hardest questions in chem... what weighs more.... an ounce of gold or an ounce of feathers?

 

[Dave R]

I read in John Palmer's online book that you can add a few pennies into the wort to prevent boil-overs. Seems copper would be safe then.

 

[Musthavbeer]

How about copper for a fermenter. I could whip out any size conical out of copper in an afternoon.

 

[Levers101]

In water, 1 part per million is 10^-6 kilograms chemical per 1 kilogram water. Assuming that 1 L of water weights 1 kg (an okay assumption), then you get 1 mg/L = 1ppm. In air 1 ppm = 10^-6 L chemical per L of air.

 

[Lost]

Copper is consumed by the yeast, it is a yeast nutrient of sorts. For this reason copper is fine for brew kettles, manifolds, chillers, etc. Palmer has stated though that is is not so great for fermentation vessels since the copper that would dissolve into the beer at that point would not be consumed by the yeast and you could end up with a bit too much copper in your beer which could be unhealthy and, more importantly, could make your beer taste bad.

Anyhow, back to the original question, I don't think it's copper that's causing your beer to be green. I use gypsum on occasion and have a large copper manifold at the bottom of the tun. I would think that I end up with quite a bit more copper in the wort than you do by using only a small pot scrubber. I have yet to experience this green tint in any of my brews. However, if the beer tastes metallic then don't drink it, if not then you're fine. My guess is that's it's trub and hop debris floating around. Let it sit and see if the finished product is green, if so then you might have some issues. At this point though I think it's too early to start worrying.

Relax and have a homebrew.

 

[texasgeorge]

which could be unhealthy and, more importantly, could make your beer taste bad

Spoken like a true homebrewer

 

[johnoswald]

Well, if it is copper in your brew, look at it this way: you'll never have a problem with mold (or algae) as copper compounds are used as fungicides (and algaecides)

Wait a minute here, have we forgotten that yeast is a fungus? Copper doesn't normally kill of the yeast, rather the wort and yeast destroy the copper pot - low pH corrosion. For those of you who put your copper immersion chillers in the boil to sanitize, don't they come out a nice and shiny? The wort cleans off the layer of oxides and salts dissolving/consuming the copper as it goes.

As for organometalic salts, sometimes it is the organic half that is deadly. I believe that with the example cited methyl mercury, it is the methyl group that does the damage to your body by methylating your tissues. The mercury is the carrier of the active (in this case) methyl group.

Biochemistry is a lot more complex than generally perceived and the repair mechanisms built into our body systems are yet fathomed.

 

[ryser2k]

I read in John Palmer's online book that you can add a few pennies into the wort to prevent boil-overs. Seems copper would be safe then.

Modern pennies are made from 97.6% zinc and only 2.4% copper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(U.S._coin)

 

[user 574]

...For those of you who put your copper immersion chillers in the boil to sanitize, don't they come out a nice and shiny? The wort cleans off the layer of oxides and salts dissolving/consuming the copper as it goes...

Copper chillers... I don't think a copper scrubbie is going to turn your beer green much less kill us. You got a heck of a lot more copper represented with the chiller.

 

[alemonkey]

Well, good news - the green is settling out now that fermentation is slowing down.

I'm pretty sure the copper had something to do with this, because the hot break in the kettle had a blue tint. The last batch I made with the same recipe wasn't anywhere near this green - it had a faint green tinge from the hop trub. This was more like pea soup.

So anyway, looks like it will turn out okay, and in the future I will pre-boil any new equipment.

 

[Mikey]

If you used pellet hops, it's the debris floating around. All my beers look slightly 'Irish' when they go into the fermenter. It will settle out.

Just reposting this in case you missed it with all the 'copper poisoning' scare..............

 

[chask31]

St. Patty's day beer...save it for next march