My 2 cents or rant on DME starters.

[redalert]

If you think about it; a strictly DME starter is not as good as a real wort starter due to the evaporation/processing/drying that's involved in making dry wort. I'm sure a lot of nutrients, enzymes, etc. necessary for yeast metabolism are destroyed in this process or at least diminished. I mean what tastes better to us humans? dry milk reconstituted with water or the real thing? Which one is more nutritious? Aren't we all made of cells? I'm sure if yeast could talk they would hands down prefer wet wort. Also how many award winning breweries world wide use DME exclusively to make beer? I'm sure it's not only because it's more expensive but it's just an inferior product. I'm sure if someone did a side by side using dme (dry wort) and wet wort and incolulated both batches with exactly the same number of yeast cells. He would find the wet wort version produced more and healthier yeast. Now I'm not totally against using DME for making Yeast Starters (i've been using yeast starters made with dme since I started this sick hobby or even as an adjunct in my brews after all who can beat DME for it's convenience? I'm just saying from now on this brewer uses the real thing.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm sure if someone did a side by side using dme (dry wort) and wet wort and incolulated both batches with exactly the same number of yeast cells.

How about some real facts or data to support your opinionated rant?

 

[Weizenwerks]

I'm sure it's not only because it's more expensive but it's just an inferior product.

Extract means the mash is done for you. It's not inferior. Plenty of medals and micro/nano breweries make extract brews. I've put the same recipe brewed extract and all grain in front of people and they couldn't tell me the difference. I've done it hundreds of times.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

heh, heh, heh, you said wet wort...heh, heh....

Sorry...I use whatever is convenient. I don't think the yeastie beasties care where their complex sugars come from. I have, however, started taking a bit of wort from my second runnings, boiling, cooling, and adding to my decanted starter to get 'em ready for what they'll be chompin on shortly. They seem to dig it, lag times have gotten shorter, fermentations more complete.

 

[bob1852]

Maybe my 45/50 brown ale would've scored a 50 if I made my starter with LME instead of DME.

 

[redalert]

Maybe my 45/50 brown ale would've scored a 50 if I made my starter with LME instead of DME.

Exactly.

 

[samc]

Are you using cheap generic 2 row to make your starter wort? Or are you buying the top of the line imported grains? What about the water? Tap/filtered or pulled right from pools of freshly melted glaciers?

 

[Golddiggie]

Next brew day, when I have a refractometer, I intend to see if there's anything left for my grains to give me after I sparge. IF there is, then I'll do a second sparge and reserve that to use for starters. Hopefully I'll be able to collect at least a few quarts to reserve.

If that doesn't work, then I might just mill up a pound, or two, of 2 row and do a micro BIAB mash to get some wort for starters... Don't need a lot, maybe a 2-4 quarts that I can reserve for a few starters. Of course, I did just pick up 1# of extra light DME to use for making starters, so I have plenty of time before I actually NEED to do this...

As for the entire DME vs LME vs wort you made from actual grain debate... I doubt the yeast really give to figs about it. They're after the SUGAR and trace nutrients in the wort... Add some yeast nutrient to the starter and they're probably too busy replicating to notice it's made from DME/LME... :fro:

 

[redalert]

Are you using cheap generic 2 row to make your starter wort? Or are you buying the top of the line imported grains? What about the water? Tap/filtered or pulled right from pools of freshly melted glaciers?

Last time I used some left over boiled wort that I didn't want in the fermenter. Mostly cold break and hops. I found if I strain that cold break and reboil it, I have a starter for my next brew day. I do have on hand top of the line grains ie. Marris Otter. I filter my water. I wish I could get some freshly melted glacier water. That would make some good beer. Seriously though, in terms of convenience dme is tops but if you just mash some extra grains or have some extra boiled wort, all you gotta do is sanitize a container, pour, and leave it for your starter for the next brew. Not to mention DME is expensive. It's a lot cheaper to make your starters from real wort. If you need any reason not to use dme its $. Amazon has 3lbs. of dme for $12 without shipping. If you go in on a group buy you can basically get 15-20 lbs of grain for that, enough for 1-3 5 gallon batches depending on strength. Maybe you all are rich but if I can save a buck making my own wort, to me it's worth it.

 

[Golddiggie]

Personally, I can usually get at least 6 starters out of a single pound of DME... I usually don't have much wort that's NOT going into the fermenter... Maybe a pint to a quart worth, if that. I MIGHT look to make some additional for my next recipe, but I'd rather use that grain for actual beer. Of course, harvesting my yeast means I'm saving more per batch than the DME costs to make the starter, so I don't see it as a big deal. With how many starters I can make from a single bag of DME, it comes out to less than $1 per batch in cost... Using washed Wyeast strains means I'm saving far more than that.

Once I'm working again, I probably won't really care so much about washing yeast less often. But, I'll still wash a strain at least from the first batch it's used in, and reserve 3-4 jars of good yeast to use. More of a convenience thing than a cost savings at that point... Until that time, I'm dialing back my brewing, so that I'm not spending the funds as often... So more like one batch a month instead of two a month...

 

[tdogg]

it would be interesting to see if there IS a difference. maybe a test could be done with two half gallon starters, one DME and one AG. both at the same OG. but my question is, if you did a side by side test, how would you measure to see which one is better?

 

[redalert]

it would be interesting to see if there IS a difference. maybe a test could be done with two half gallon starters, one DME and one AG. both at the same OG. but my question is, if you did a side by side test, how would you measure to see which one is better?

Speaking strictly yeast growth and viability and ignoring taste of final product. You can run a test of 2 batches. For conversations' sake lets say you put 2 identical yeast cells in dry wort and 2 same identical cells in wet wort. Both worts being exactly the same gravity points. Both batches in exact same containers at exactly the same temps. Next we wait for fermentation to end for both batches doing multiple gravity readings every 2 hours until the gravity stops. We of course would have to be in a sterile environment. At the end of fermentation we isolate all the yeast in each container and count the individual yeast cells. My theory is that the original 2 yeast cells in the wet wort would outnumber the yeast cells in the dry wort. The wet wort yeast would also be healthier and more robust. Of course this is all under the assumption that more, healthier yeast yield a better tasting beer, which in itself is a subjective thing. Again this is just theory. Modern and dated brewery methods would support this theory else they would have gotten rid of their mash tuns long ago.

 

[theredben]

redalert - You are confusing starters with beer here. When you make a starter you want to increase yeast populations, not produce quality beer. Yeast can propably tell the difference between DME and a fresh mash, but who cares? If you end up with the same population at the end of the fermentation it makes no difference. Again, if you can back up your ridiculous claims with some science I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.

I do small mashes of 2-row for starters when time allows, just due to the fact that it is waaay cheaper. The money factor is the only reason to use fresh wort for starters.

 

[user 19629]

Until you get a microscope and start doing cell counts it's all conjecture.

 

[MalFet]

Using a hemocytometer and various yeast viability tests, I observed no difference in yeast growth or health between dme-based wort and mashed wort. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will say that there is no quality difference between the two for starter purposes. Where you decide to land on the cost vs. convenience scale is between you and your beer-Jesus.

 

[redalert]

Using a hemocytometer and various yeast viability tests, I observed no difference in yeast growth or health between dme-based wort and mashed wort. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will say that there is no quality difference between the two for starter purposes. Where you decide to land on the cost vs. convenience scale is between you and your beer-Jesus.

Assuming your analysis is correct and you followed strict scientific method guidelines and eliminated most if not all variables when doing the tests, I stand corrected.

 

[MalFet]

Assuming your analysis is correct and you followed strict scientific method guidelines and eliminated most if not all variables when doing the tests, I stand corrected.

You mean more strict than your methods?

 

[redalert]

You mean more strict than your methods?

Not my methods. The Scientific Method as owning to Galileo Galilei (1564-1642).

Wikipedia

"
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.

[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

[2] The Oxford English Dictionary says that scientific method is: "a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

[3] Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of obtaining knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable, to predict future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. Theories, in turn, may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible, to reduce biased interpretations of results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, giving them the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established."

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Please use the report post button if you have a problem with the tone or content of a post.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My apologies, I thought the light hearted tone of MY jab was clear. Guess not! Carry on...

 

[bob1852]

Red - I haven't heard the terms dry wort and wet wort before...

Is that something you coined?

I know it's pretty well known that making a starter with something like simple sugar isn't recommended; but I am curious as to why you suggest that yeast would different to a stater made with DME versus a starter made all-grain style.

After all, isn't DME just dehydrated "wort" that was made via all-grain?

 

[redalert]

Red - I haven't heard the terms dry wort and wet wort before...

Is that something you coined?

Nah but that's essentialy what DME is, dry wort, no?

I know it's pretty well known that making a starter with something like simple sugar isn't recommended; but I am curious as to why you suggest that yeast would different to a stater made with DME versus a starter made all-grain style.

..because the more you process a foodstuff (drying, chemical, or other means) the more nutrients and living enzymes are lost (Ask a NASA scientist who's been in outer space how dehydrated meatloaf tastes).
Based upon this widely known fact, I'm surmising that those nutrients and living enzymes are not present in DME "dry wort" or are there to a lesser degree therefore impeding some or all yeast cells in their effectiveness to make beer, reproduce, clean up after themselves or any of a number of processes involved in alcohol production. This impedition, if it in fact exists, may be to such a small degree that we as humans cannot quantify it ie. we cannot taste the difference in the final product of a beer whose starter was made with dry or wet wort. In which case we have nothing to worry about. I for one choose to err on the side of caution and if I have the time I will make starters using a mini mash as opposed to DME. To each his own though.

 

[bob1852]

That's a valid point, but I add yeast nutrient and yeast energizer to my starters made with DME; so perhaps I'm replacing anything (nitrogen?) that's lost during the process of converting wort to DME?

It would be fun to experiment with this; but my assumption is that the experiments wouldn't yield much useful info - especially at the homebrew scale...

Like you sad - if you can't taste the difference, it doesn't really matter...

 

[redalert]

Red - I haven't heard the terms dry wort and wet wort before...

Is that something you coined?

I know it's pretty well known that making a starter with something like simple sugar isn't recommended; but I am curious as to why you suggest that yeast would different to a stater made with DME versus a starter made all-grain style.

After all, isn't DME just dehydrated "wort" that was made via all-grain?

That's a valid point, but I add yeast nutrient and yeast energizer to my starters made with DME; so perhaps I'm replacing anything (nitrogen?) that's lost during the process of converting wort to DME?

It would be fun to experiment with this; but my assumption is that the experiments wouldn't yield much useful info - especially at the homebrew scale...

Like you sad - if you can't taste the difference, it doesn't really matter...

I havent' thought about yeast nutrient and energizer but even these things are not "alive" as freshly made wort is. In any case, these questions are best left for people with million dollar budgets and the equipment to carry these experiments. I for one do not have the budget, equipment, or patience to carry out these experiments and even if I did, I could very well come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter and a yeast starter with dme is just as effective as a starter made with a mini-mash. I doubt it though and like I said in the previous post; If time and effort are not a concern, I choose to make a starter with a mini-mash as opposed to DME.

 

[stevedasleeve]

The truth is IMHO that beer - quality beer, good beer - can be made really easily without OCD sanitation, or liquid yeast or extract or using oxygen or having a pump and a whirlpool etc etc etc.

Steve

 

[rockfish42]

..because the more you process a foodstuff (drying, chemical, or other means) the more nutrients and living enzymes are lost (Ask a NASA scientist who's been in outer space how dehydrated meatloaf tastes). Based upon this widely known fact.

This is not really an issue, enzymes don't survive a boil whether you start with DME or a mini-mash.

Yeast need sugars, FAN and phosphate, vitamins, lipids, and a few select inorganic ions. The only thing that DME might be lacking in is FAN.

Yeast growth medium in the lab is definitely not made from fresh wort, so in the search for some sort of mystical life force found in fresh wort you're at least a few steps behind

 

[tekknoschtev]

It would be fun to experiment with this; but my assumption is that the experiments wouldn't yield much useful info - especially at the homebrew scale...

Its also an experiment that would be made more fun by the fact that at the end, whether or not the hypothesis was supported, you have beer!

 

[redalert]

This is not really an issue, enzymes don't survive a boil whether you start with DME or a mini-mash.

Yeast need sugars, FAN and phosphate, vitamins, lipids, and a few select inorganic ions. The only thing that DME might be lacking in is FAN.

I dunno I just find it hard to believe that, in the process of evaporation of water from the wort, some other nutrients are lost which benefit yeast health and the resulting beer.

This is on a web page that I searched for and found on how they make DME
http://www.maltcompany.com/process_malt_extract.htm

"Evaporation

The wort is fed into a series of multi stage stainless steel falling film evaporator steps to concentrate it into to a viscous liquid. Evaporation takes place under vacuum in order that lower temperatures can be used. This enables the full flavour and characteristics of the malt extract to be retained.
The resultant product is liquid malt extract. This is either packed for dispatch to the customer, or fed to the drying plants and turned into various types of dried malt extract."

Looks like a pretty benign process how they describe it.

Beer is water, malt, hops, yeast. A starter is beer minus the hops. Overall, I still think freshly made wort is a superior product compared to DME just like an all-grain beer is generally better tasting than a DME beer. There are exceptions of course but all things being equal, if you put an all-grain beer next to a DME beer 9 times out of 10 the all-grain beer will win out. Again if the dried form of malted barley is a superior product then show me an award winning beer made with it, you won't because that beer doesn't exist. This is not to say that great beer cannot be made with DME only that exceptional beer cannot be made with DME. Until I'm proven wrong my yeast get mashed wort. Period.

 

[bob1852]

Why would nutrients/etc. be lost during evaporation?

When you evaporate sea water you lose H20, not any of the NaCl, CaCl, KCl, other salts and elements....

 

[redalert]

This is not really an issue, enzymes don't survive a boil whether you start with DME or a mini-mash.

Yeast need sugars, FAN and phosphate, vitamins, lipids, and a few select inorganic ions. The only thing that DME might be lacking in is FAN.

Yeast growth medium in the lab is definitely not made from fresh wort, so in the search for some sort of mystical life force found in fresh wort you're at least a few steps behind

Why would nutrients/etc. be lost during evaporation?

When you evaporate sea water you lose H20, not any of the NaCl, CaCl, KCl, other salts and elements....

You're right maybe not most nutrients but certainly other compounds such as FAN, as rockfish42 mentioned.