Munich Base Malt and 16% Roasted Malt - Crazy?

[jimpdx]

(cross-posted to the AHA forum)

I decided to brew up 12 gallons of a CDA/Black IPA. One of my favorite breweries had posted this on their Facebook page when I inquired about one of my favorite dark hoppy beers of theirs:

Midnight wheat ,Carmel Munich , Munich ,soarchi ace , citra, cascades . $4# per bbl . FG 1.018 usually

I ended up with the following grain bill based on some research:

72.7% Munich
10.6% Caramunich
10.6% Midnight Wheat
6.1% Carafa Special II

Having recently learned that Vienna and Munich are only slightly more kilned than pale 2-row, I assumed it was a safe base malt that would contribute lots of body and malt sweetness to standup to the 85 IBU I had planned. I included two bitterless black malts since many CDA recipes feature Carafa II and I wanted more dark malt than just the midnight wheat.

After a healthy pitched starter of 1056 with pure O2 and nutrients in the boil, the ferment completely died at 1.030 (from OG 1.072). I know that 1056 can hit 75-78% attentuation so this puzzled me. Looking at my daily temps, the fermenter had reached 78 degrees which I do all the time with Belgian strains but I understand that upper 60s, lower 70s is better for this strain. I swirled the fermenter and added some yeast energizer but no joy.

The resulting samples from primary after 7-10 days are fairly acrid and bordering on the dreaded "ashtray" descriptor I have seen thrown around, and an extremely full body. I did more research on Munich as a base malt and although you get conflicting answers, many seem to say that it should not exceed 30%. While it may have not as much diastatic enzyme, I *did* hit my OG after all so I got good conversion. I kept the mash between 148 and 154 - both of which should provide enough fermentables to have a lower final gravity, or even a lower gravity after primary.

I don't really want to pour 12 gallons of this down the drain but not seeing many other options. I thought about diluting it with some distilled water, blending it with a lighter second batch or even throwing in Champagne yeast. However losing more sweetness will only further exaggerate the crazy high bitterness, which I don't believe will fade all that much over time.

Any suggestions, ideas, comments?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Wow. How did you ever come up with a recipe using this much roasted malt? That's about 5-10x what you needed. My RIS I make every spring only uses 10-12%.

While in some recipes more than 10-15% Munich malt is not stylistically appropriate, a 100% Munich malt beer is not uncommonly done. So that's not the issue. You aren't measuring gravity with a refractometer, are you? It probably is simply a function of some 28% specialty malts and inconsistent mash temps. How long did you mash?

In any event, time may help. Beers with high percentages of roasted malts smooth out significantly over time. I don't know that this will ever taste like a CDA, but it may be a tasty stout at some point.

 

[tomaso]

Not an expert but with only about 70% of base malt, and on top of that it being Munich I'd be afraid about ending up high on gravity with a bigger beer and if on top that the mash is at 154 it didn't surprise me.

 

[jimpdx]

Thanks guys. As usual I was analyzing a dozen or more recipes and trying to combine elements of the better ones. I wasn't thinking about the overall % of roasted malt which is where I definitely went wrong. That plus a drifting mash temp and high fermentation temp didn't help either. I am going to rack this to secondary with some vanilla beans and see if I can stabilize the flavor a bit. Not sure I want to devote 2 x 6G carboys to this experiment although I do think it will mellow over time. Perhaps blending with a simple APA would have a nice flavor. I can still call it a CDA I guess, just a highly experimental one

 

[wailingguitar]

I use Munich as 100% base in my Oktoberfest and up to 75% in doppelbocks (home and commercial) even did a stout 1-off with 100% Munich as base malt at Bell's years ago. No issues with Munich as a base malt, it can make a great beer. The problem I see with the recipe is the excessive amount of roasted grains, maybe 2x as much as I would recommend

 

[blizz81]

I haven't used either, but aren't both midnight wheat and special II supposed to be very smooth, essentially-debittered dark malts? It's a bit surprising to me (on paper at least) that it'd be that acrid. It does sound like too much for this particular style either way as you're going to end up with huge body.

I have a RIS where I use about 20% (!) roasted to the tune of 3lb 300L chocolate to 2lb black barley 500L, and while it certainly ends up viscous and full-bodied (as desired for that style), it tastes RIS-ey and not ashtray-ey. So I'm kind of curious for my own future black IPAs.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I haven't used either, but aren't both midnight wheat and special II supposed to be very smooth, essentially-debittered dark malts? It's a bit surprising to me (on paper at least) that it'd be that acrid.

They're huskless, and dehusked, respectively. The lack of a roasted husk reduces bitterness, relative to husked grains, but it won't eliminate it by a long shot. The stuff is still roasted black.

 

[funnelweb]

Caraffa (in all versions) is the Dragon!!

 

[C-Rider]

Don't fear the Munich Malt. I did 2 100% Munich IPAs. One w/10 and the other w/20 (darkMunich)

With the normal 10 Munich I got an ABV of 6.8%
With the darker Munich I only got ABV of 4.2 due to the lower power of the dark to covert itself.

Both tasted great. These were SMASH w/Magnum hops.

 

[Ravenshead]

Munich has just about enough diastatic power to convert itself but not much more. The remaining malts in your recipe have almost no diastatic power. Add a handful of six row next time you use all Munich for your base malt and you'll have all the diastatic power you need. Even then, as many have said, you'll have a lot of un-fermentables with that many roasted/roasted malts in your grain bill

 

[MVKTR2]

First like most things in brewing there is fairly well defined science that addresses a mash's ability to convert starch into sugar. Brad Smith does a good job with it here.

As for the beer the 1.030 fg is pretty close to what I'd expect from 16% roasted malt and mash temps as high as 154. You've made an imperial stout. Brag about it, celebrate, don't dump! Seriously bottle it, set it aside, it will mellow, and you'll be very happy.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

I'm not sure but just as roasted malts are nonfementable more highly kilned malts like Munich would add some nonfermentables, be it a small amount, to the finished beer increasing gravity.

FYI I made a similar mistake with a small batch of imperial stout when I used 21% roasted malt. A 8.5% abv beer finished at 1.029 iirc but was well brewed otherwise and was perceived as a huge much larger beer in tasting. It even won the stout/porter category in the one comp I entered it into.

 

[jan_b19]

Next time try using
60% munich
30% pilsner
5% caramunich
4% midnight
1% carafa


or something similar

There is a reason why all manufacturers suggest using 5% max roasting malts in a beer, especially when using a munich base malt . They can really make a beer undrinkable.
Furthermore during roasting grains lose a lot of their "enzymatic power" which means that if you use a lot of roasted malts you need to add some additional fermentables either by using a additional base malt or by adding honey, sugar, ... .
The beer stopped fermenting because there is nothing left to ferment. Mashing temperature doesn't make a difference when there are no enzymes to turn into fermentable sugar.

You can either set it aside and let it mellow as said above or you can mix it with a lighter young beer both are viable options. However if you chose to blend the beer and it doesn't work out like you wanted you'll have even more undrinkable beer.

 

[chickypad]

guys, I think the advice comes a little late here

 

[jtratcliff]

I dunno... He might still have some left in the keg, if it was really nasty...