What are your fermentation temperatures?
Multi-step saccrification rests
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What are your fermentation temperatures?
Beergnomes
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That's a great idea but 12 oz of ale that hasn't had the time to condition isn't as appealing to me as 12 oz that sat in a bottle for 5-6 weeks. Plus, I bottle not keg. What I think I will do is look at other alcohol conversion calculators as suggested and re calibrate this refractometer again.
Just ma sat 63 degreas for 90 minutes to achieve maximum conversion, well 62.2 to be exact, if your wondering how I get this figure I work in alcohol production site which gets effiancy figures of 98% ( grain distillery )
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VladOfTrub
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Put some of the fermenting beer into a container. Add a LOT of yeast...even bread yeast will work. Put it in a warm place and let it go. You"re not trying to make beer here. You're trying to find the outer limit that it will ferment to. If the gravity drops after a few days, then you know you have fermentables left. If it doesn't, adding more yeast to the main batch won't help.
Buy a sugar reduction kit. It will tell within seconds if there are fermentables and at what percentage.
Buy a sugar reduction kit. It will tell within seconds if there are fermentables and at what percentage.
VladOfTrub
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OP..When the mash was in the 140-145F temp rest. Starch wasn't gelatinized. Beta was active, but very limited. If you desire to do a rest at 140-145F, it would be best to raise the temp to around 150 for a short time to gelatinize starch. Beta will have more to work with. After the 150F beta rest go to the alpha rest. Use iodine and pay attention to the color shade when checking for conversion. Dark red to brown; gelatinized starch, loaded with a-limit dextrins, very sweet, unstable beer. Light red to brown; less fermentable, sweeter beer. No color change/slight color change; a good mixture of fermentable and non fermentable sugar. Recipes for certain styles of German beer call out several temp rests, even when using high modified malt. The rest temps are based on the SNR number of the malt. The English method is probably best for an Old Ale, using British pale malt. Even though phytase is kilned out of high modified malt. Malt is still slightly acidic. Doing a rest before going to mashing temps helps stabilize mash pH. Mashing shouldn't begin if mash pH is above 6. Regarding, whether a protein rest is a waste of time. Again, it depends on the SNR number of the malt. An SNR number of 37 and above is considered high modified. An SNR between 33 and 36, a 122F rest is OK, 37 to 40, 130 is OK. Above 40, no protein rest. It takes a long time to completely devoid a beer of protein or to over modify malt. The rest is used to break down types of cellulose and pectin. Brewers, adverse to a low temp rest. May not realize that malt has an SNR number, or that it takes quite some time to reduce protein, or that other occurrences take place during the rest, that are beneficial. They're stuck, solely, on the protein/body/head thing. With batch sparging method, a 122-130F temp rest might not be beneficial, as the sludge would end up down the line...
Lost1anguage
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OP UPDATE:
Made a new starter, dumped it in last night and as of this morning I still got nada. I doubt that since I JUST made the starter I'm still waiting for the yeast to wake up. It certainly seems like I certainly got very little beta conversion and almost all alpha of my starches.
To the guy who mentioned gelatinization, thanks! That makes TONS of sense to me now, I did burn through that 150 mark pretty quickly on my way to 158-160. Next time I'll mash at a lower temp, I'll hit 150 and creep up my alpha rest to 148-150.
In the mean time, what do I do with this extremely sweet lightly alcoholic sugar water?
Can I put something in the mix to bring down my gravity?
Made a new starter, dumped it in last night and as of this morning I still got nada. I doubt that since I JUST made the starter I'm still waiting for the yeast to wake up. It certainly seems like I certainly got very little beta conversion and almost all alpha of my starches.
To the guy who mentioned gelatinization, thanks! That makes TONS of sense to me now, I did burn through that 150 mark pretty quickly on my way to 158-160. Next time I'll mash at a lower temp, I'll hit 150 and creep up my alpha rest to 148-150.
In the mean time, what do I do with this extremely sweet lightly alcoholic sugar water?
Can I put something in the mix to bring down my gravity?
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It will come out dry for an old ale, but it should clear up your mash issues post haste.
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Lost1anguage
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Ah yes, I should just just watch it closely and crash it once I hit my target gravity right?
Beano should work too right?
Beano should work too right?
That's alpha galactosidase which is for complex sugars, not starches, so I don't know--but maybe? Coin toss?
I don't know if you can stop the reaction with a crash without pasteurizing. You could probably stop it at fridge/crash temps but it might start up again when you carb your bottles (boom). I know the optimal temps for amylases are basically mash temps but they are supposed to work closer to room temp too (they work in our mouths, after all). And adding less probably won't help limit it since it's an enzyme, that should just slow it down.
I just have amylase in case I need it sometime. I haven't used it, so this is speculative, but I think of it as a nuclear option for this reason (unless I'm making a dry saison or something--which has me thinking, maybe I should make a beano-amylase saison... yum).
I don't know if you can stop the reaction with a crash without pasteurizing. You could probably stop it at fridge/crash temps but it might start up again when you carb your bottles (boom). I know the optimal temps for amylases are basically mash temps but they are supposed to work closer to room temp too (they work in our mouths, after all). And adding less probably won't help limit it since it's an enzyme, that should just slow it down.
I just have amylase in case I need it sometime. I haven't used it, so this is speculative, but I think of it as a nuclear option for this reason (unless I'm making a dry saison or something--which has me thinking, maybe I should make a beano-amylase saison... yum).
VladOfTrub
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I'm not sure if Amylase will change non fermentable sugars into fermentable sugar. It is sometimes used in brewing to aid conversion. I think shiners use it and maybe rice wine'rs. It is added to mash, not wort.
The beer created is not going to be stable. Mix it into other batches a little bit at a time. Make sure it isn't spoiled. Maybe pack it away in a keg and hope the yeast is a type that will work on maltriose. Every once in awhile open the relief to see if anything is happening. Maybe sour it up and pastuerize it and add some of it into some kind of dark beer. Or, dump it and consider it a low cost education. If everything works right the first time, very little is learned. Alpha begins working at low temp. All it does is liquify native starch and changes it to carbohydrate soup. The low temp acid and protein rest used in brewing processes gives alpha that opportunity. Once alpha does the carbohydrate thing, beta will start to do it's job starting around 130/135F. But it isn't making a ton of fermentables. It is only chopping up dextrins. The 140-145F rest is beneficial, if there is a higher rest temp, after starch has gelatinized and at beta optimum temp and pH. Be adviced, mash will convert at 140F if given enough time and create a lot of fermentable sugar and higher attenuation. Especially in a thinner mash. When I brew certain styles of lager, I'll convert one of the decoctions at 145F. Alpha is inherent in grain when it's in the field, beta is created during malting and kilning. Sometimes malt becomes "slack" because it is old. Enzymatic activity becomes reduced and the mash will not convert, unless amylase is added.
The beer created is not going to be stable. Mix it into other batches a little bit at a time. Make sure it isn't spoiled. Maybe pack it away in a keg and hope the yeast is a type that will work on maltriose. Every once in awhile open the relief to see if anything is happening. Maybe sour it up and pastuerize it and add some of it into some kind of dark beer. Or, dump it and consider it a low cost education. If everything works right the first time, very little is learned. Alpha begins working at low temp. All it does is liquify native starch and changes it to carbohydrate soup. The low temp acid and protein rest used in brewing processes gives alpha that opportunity. Once alpha does the carbohydrate thing, beta will start to do it's job starting around 130/135F. But it isn't making a ton of fermentables. It is only chopping up dextrins. The 140-145F rest is beneficial, if there is a higher rest temp, after starch has gelatinized and at beta optimum temp and pH. Be adviced, mash will convert at 140F if given enough time and create a lot of fermentable sugar and higher attenuation. Especially in a thinner mash. When I brew certain styles of lager, I'll convert one of the decoctions at 145F. Alpha is inherent in grain when it's in the field, beta is created during malting and kilning. Sometimes malt becomes "slack" because it is old. Enzymatic activity becomes reduced and the mash will not convert, unless amylase is added.
I won't vouch that it's smart, but it is used in wort as well as mash. Some suppliers even advertise it for that. Conversion is changing nonfermentables into fermentables. If your yeast are alive (and they always are, even when you abuse them), they will eat it and you'll get a really dry old ale, which doesn't sound very good to me.
When you have incomplete conversion it is almost always due to denatured enzyme (some or all of your mash got too hot for too long). Sometimes it's hard to get a good read on your mash temp without stirring the crap out of it, which some people don't want to do because they're trying to retain heat. That has become my go-to suspect for these situations. The rest isn't rocket science, these grains have so much enzyme in them they'll convert one way or another as long as you get them somewhere close to the sweet spot.
There is a smart solution here, but it involves doing another mash and pouring this one down the drain--or putting this one away in a corner and checking back in a few weeks while you wait on the one that might actually deliver. But sometimes folks don't want to hear that.
When you have incomplete conversion it is almost always due to denatured enzyme (some or all of your mash got too hot for too long). Sometimes it's hard to get a good read on your mash temp without stirring the crap out of it, which some people don't want to do because they're trying to retain heat. That has become my go-to suspect for these situations. The rest isn't rocket science, these grains have so much enzyme in them they'll convert one way or another as long as you get them somewhere close to the sweet spot.
There is a smart solution here, but it involves doing another mash and pouring this one down the drain--or putting this one away in a corner and checking back in a few weeks while you wait on the one that might actually deliver. But sometimes folks don't want to hear that.
Lost1anguage
Member
Added Beano to the carboy, fermentation picked up again after a day. I have a ring of foam along the outside edge of the carboy producing a consistent bubbling about every 4-5 seconds. After another day I added amalyse enzyme, which produced an almost instant reaction (very cool to watch). I am down to ~1.045. I figure I'll be in the range I want to be by the end of this upcoming weekend (today is tuesday).
I've considered cold crashing this in around a 40 degree environment with a healthy dose of isinglass to clear up the result. I suppose I'll know pretty quickly if cold crashing is successful. Given some of the comments here, perhaps I should pasteurize? How do I pasteurize 5 gallons? Keep it in the carboy? I don't bottle I keg.
I've considered cold crashing this in around a 40 degree environment with a healthy dose of isinglass to clear up the result. I suppose I'll know pretty quickly if cold crashing is successful. Given some of the comments here, perhaps I should pasteurize? How do I pasteurize 5 gallons? Keep it in the carboy? I don't bottle I keg.
Mad science, I love it. I guess you force carb, not natural, in the keg? If so I'd pasteurize it in the keg, since that's less fragile than a carboy, and it means you won't have to rack it again. Get the internal temp to a consistent ~150F (to be safe) however you like, presumably in hot water. Over 180 and you start to get isomerization which could affect your late hops, if any.
Left chart is 5-log reduction (1/100,000 of original germ count)... I think you're safe below 150 but sometimes it helps to allow some room for practical error. I gather this doesn't harm the flavor of the beer considerably (I haven't done it).
At first I was thinking you had to go over 170F to denature the enzyme, but you just need to kill the yeast if you aren't repitching. If you are not force carbing you'll have to get it over 170F.
Left chart is 5-log reduction (1/100,000 of original germ count)... I think you're safe below 150 but sometimes it helps to allow some room for practical error. I gather this doesn't harm the flavor of the beer considerably (I haven't done it).
At first I was thinking you had to go over 170F to denature the enzyme, but you just need to kill the yeast if you aren't repitching. If you are not force carbing you'll have to get it over 170F.
Lost1anguage
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I force carb, yes. I filter too, down to 1 micron
Ball lock keg with black plastic-y top and bottom. I can't direct heat it, which makes me think I should just direct heat the carboy on the stove (lol).
-or-
Fill the kettle with water and insert the keg and carboy. Until I can indirectly get it to temp. Should I filter before or after? I'm guessing after.
I wish the carboy fit in my dishwasher.
Ball lock keg with black plastic-y top and bottom. I can't direct heat it, which makes me think I should just direct heat the carboy on the stove (lol).
-or-
Fill the kettle with water and insert the keg and carboy. Until I can indirectly get it to temp. Should I filter before or after? I'm guessing after.
I wish the carboy fit in my dishwasher.
Oh yeah, I'd keg it and put it in a kettle full of water somewhat higher than your target temp, temping the beer inside the keg until you're satisfied. I'd keep the kettle on the burner so if you need to you can burn it low. Maybe put an old towel under the keg inside the kettle to distribute any direct heat, like you would in a pressure cooker. If you get the method down I suppose you'll be set for kegging hard ginger beer, root beer, sweet cider...
I'd actually consider filtering before you pasteurize if it doesn't make a difference to you otherwise, because that would reduce the yeast count so that you can use even an less rigorous pasteurization temperature if you want.
I would avoid pasteurizing in the carboy (direct heat or otherwise haha) since a) you'll be racking off any sediment in there and it's probably easier to do so if you don't rouse it and b) getting everything ready in your final vessel before you pasteurize it there should give you the lowest dissolved oxygen and lowest risk of contamination, just as a matter of optimizing everything.
I don't want to misrepresent my expertise here though, like I said, this is all theoretical for me. I'm sure someone else has been in the position of doing something like this but it seems like they aren't here.
I'd actually consider filtering before you pasteurize if it doesn't make a difference to you otherwise, because that would reduce the yeast count so that you can use even an less rigorous pasteurization temperature if you want.
I would avoid pasteurizing in the carboy (direct heat or otherwise haha) since a) you'll be racking off any sediment in there and it's probably easier to do so if you don't rouse it and b) getting everything ready in your final vessel before you pasteurize it there should give you the lowest dissolved oxygen and lowest risk of contamination, just as a matter of optimizing everything.
I don't want to misrepresent my expertise here though, like I said, this is all theoretical for me. I'm sure someone else has been in the position of doing something like this but it seems like they aren't here.
Lost1anguage
Member
Man.... this takes forever. Checked yesterday and i'm still dropping. Down to 1.030, Probably (hopefully) done by this next weekend (today is Monday). Friday is the 3 week mark it's been in this vessel. If i'm not done by Friday should I re-rack to get off the current cake?
Also, can someone point me to a thread that properly instructs me how to properly direct fire mash? I'd hate to mis-convert another batch again because I'm missing temp targets.
I wonder about the nature of this process. How different will this beer taste compared to a beer that was properly mashed? What would the differences be?
Also, can someone point me to a thread that properly instructs me how to properly direct fire mash? I'd hate to mis-convert another batch again because I'm missing temp targets.
I wonder about the nature of this process. How different will this beer taste compared to a beer that was properly mashed? What would the differences be?
The recipe you posted:
9 lbs of pale 2 row
1.5 lbs of crystal 20l
1 lb of amber malt
1 lb of honey malt
1 lb of munich 10l
1/2 lb of flaked oats
1/2 lb of wheat malt
1/2 lb of rice hulls
With the 1.5lbs of crystal, 1lb of amber, 1lb of honey malt, you have 25% high unfermentable malts in your bill. This will not account for all the problem, but certainly not going to help get a low FG.
I think step 1 for your next brew is to just stop with the multiple step mashes for a second. You got a new piece of equipment, don't add any other variables to that. Your change in efficiency was a result of the particular malts and their crush and the fact that if you didn't need to add water to increase temps than you sparged with more water (even then there is only so much starch/sugar in the grains). If you brewed 2 simultaneous batches with the same grains, crushed the same, and rinsed with the same amount of water, then you will get the same efficiency for a single infusion temp mash and a step mash. The number one benefit of direct heating mash-tun is the ability to maintain a constant temperature during the mash.
I would make sure your thermometer is accurate. It's hard to test the accuracy at the range we use for brewing, but you can at least make sure you are extremely close to 32F when it's in a cup with lots of crushed ice with just a little water, and then make sure it's at 209-212F (based on what temp water boils at your elevation) when in boiling water. If it's off at either of those than it can easily be off at any temp in between. Also are you sure to stir thoroughly when taking mash temps? If direct heated the mash can be inconsistent temperatures throughout.
9 lbs of pale 2 row
1.5 lbs of crystal 20l
1 lb of amber malt
1 lb of honey malt
1 lb of munich 10l
1/2 lb of flaked oats
1/2 lb of wheat malt
1/2 lb of rice hulls
With the 1.5lbs of crystal, 1lb of amber, 1lb of honey malt, you have 25% high unfermentable malts in your bill. This will not account for all the problem, but certainly not going to help get a low FG.
I think step 1 for your next brew is to just stop with the multiple step mashes for a second. You got a new piece of equipment, don't add any other variables to that. Your change in efficiency was a result of the particular malts and their crush and the fact that if you didn't need to add water to increase temps than you sparged with more water (even then there is only so much starch/sugar in the grains). If you brewed 2 simultaneous batches with the same grains, crushed the same, and rinsed with the same amount of water, then you will get the same efficiency for a single infusion temp mash and a step mash. The number one benefit of direct heating mash-tun is the ability to maintain a constant temperature during the mash.
I would make sure your thermometer is accurate. It's hard to test the accuracy at the range we use for brewing, but you can at least make sure you are extremely close to 32F when it's in a cup with lots of crushed ice with just a little water, and then make sure it's at 209-212F (based on what temp water boils at your elevation) when in boiling water. If it's off at either of those than it can easily be off at any temp in between. Also are you sure to stir thoroughly when taking mash temps? If direct heated the mash can be inconsistent temperatures throughout.
Lost1anguage
Member
Not 100% of "unfermentable" malts will be unfermentable right? I mean I always thought they were added because they are less fermentable than the rest. This is why they still yield something when put into calculator programs (at least I thought so).
I plan on getting a new thermometer, as that could be a problem, however I have a thermometer installed on the kettle AND I float a kitchen one down in there during brewing. the two generally read the same although during heating I find the kitchen one is much faster to move and vary as I check different areas.
I see lots of setups on brew sculptures with recirculator pumps and such. I don't draw off as I heat, I generally stir as I heat to a minute or two after I cut the heat off. Could I also be denaturing the enzyme via scorching? My kettle has the false dome bottom I previously installed in my cooler, it's not a platform type, so much of the grain is in direct contact with the bottom of the kettle which receives the heat.
I plan on getting a new thermometer, as that could be a problem, however I have a thermometer installed on the kettle AND I float a kitchen one down in there during brewing. the two generally read the same although during heating I find the kitchen one is much faster to move and vary as I check different areas.
I see lots of setups on brew sculptures with recirculator pumps and such. I don't draw off as I heat, I generally stir as I heat to a minute or two after I cut the heat off. Could I also be denaturing the enzyme via scorching? My kettle has the false dome bottom I previously installed in my cooler, it's not a platform type, so much of the grain is in direct contact with the bottom of the kettle which receives the heat.
Yes, even "unfermentables" (e.g. crystal) are almost entirely fermentable in terms of percentages, we just think of them that way because they leave more behind.
I mash in my kettle too, but I do the water volume calculation and then toss my grains in there when it's up to temp. I only direct-fire for mash out. I wouldn't be astounded if this were your issue. It seems like it would be easy for temps to get too high in some parts of the mash, maybe even several times during the process, eventually leaving you with too little diastatic power for the mash. If you scorched just one part I think you'd be fine, but if you got the bottom far too hot, then stirred, then repeated that a few times, I bet you'd wind up with very little enzyme.
It's not as scientific as the iodine test (which I almost never bother with), but do you taste your mash? You can get a pretty good idea of when conversion is done, if you get in the habit, just as a failsafe in case something goes wrong. The wort becomes very sweet (of course), and you have less and less of that starchy mouthfeel as it totally completes.
I know some people don't like the taste, but I kind of like it. I can't keep my four year old out of it when I lauter (though she will sit there and eat a handful of Special B, too, so maybe that's not normal).
I mash in my kettle too, but I do the water volume calculation and then toss my grains in there when it's up to temp. I only direct-fire for mash out. I wouldn't be astounded if this were your issue. It seems like it would be easy for temps to get too high in some parts of the mash, maybe even several times during the process, eventually leaving you with too little diastatic power for the mash. If you scorched just one part I think you'd be fine, but if you got the bottom far too hot, then stirred, then repeated that a few times, I bet you'd wind up with very little enzyme.
It's not as scientific as the iodine test (which I almost never bother with), but do you taste your mash? You can get a pretty good idea of when conversion is done, if you get in the habit, just as a failsafe in case something goes wrong. The wort becomes very sweet (of course), and you have less and less of that starchy mouthfeel as it totally completes.
I know some people don't like the taste, but I kind of like it. I can't keep my four year old out of it when I lauter (though she will sit there and eat a handful of Special B, too, so maybe that's not normal).
Lost1anguage
Member
How do you handle any heat loss? I can't maintain temperature consistency for 60 minutes without loosing heat in the kettle.
How's your headspace? When I get headspace to zero (which you can kind of do no matter your grain bill if you tweak the ratio within reason), I get less than a degree loss with just a lid and a dish towel draped over it.
I'm on a gas stove, though, so the kettle is raised, which might affect conduction a little. Otherwise it's been better than my old cooler tun (which was a righteous POS, to be fair). But in both my cooler and my kettle I have found headspace to be the single biggest factor for heat loss.
When I have more headspace or miss my temp a little I definitely fire it up and stir, but I have never had a scorching/overheating issue just adjusting it up a few degrees like that.
I'm on a gas stove, though, so the kettle is raised, which might affect conduction a little. Otherwise it's been better than my old cooler tun (which was a righteous POS, to be fair). But in both my cooler and my kettle I have found headspace to be the single biggest factor for heat loss.
When I have more headspace or miss my temp a little I definitely fire it up and stir, but I have never had a scorching/overheating issue just adjusting it up a few degrees like that.
Lost1anguage
Member
I am also on a gas stove, it takes a while to get my temps up, even on 3 burners. The kettle isn't filled to the brim, it is full enough that excessive stirring certainly does make a mess.
Hmm, hard to say what's wrong then, I've got a cheap aluminum kettle that should really hold no heat, but once it's up it stays up if it's full. I use beersmith to get the strike water up to temp in the kettle (so, no equipment heat loss calculation), then I add the grain and stir quite a lot, maybe firing if I come in a couple of degrees too low. It's not such a sustained burn that I have to worry about scorching though.
Lost1anguage
Member
Cold crashing the batch now, looks to have settled out at 1.027 and 9.3% alcohol (according to the standard equation). I guess it's 1/2 old ale and 1/2 barleywine. I'll filter/keg and pasteurize (in keg), Friday night, and hopefully it'll be ready for a mild tasting by the end of the weekend (6 weeks since brewday). I assume that all that "cleaning up" the yeast does in the post primary fermentation cycle has roughly fully occurred in the last month as I've watched this thing float down to it's final gravity.
I brewed another big beer over the weekend with the method you (fearwig) described by infusing to a single saccrification rest temp then firing up again for mashout. I had a little heat loss, and only fired up again for about 60-90 seconds about 2/3rds through the hour I rested at. I pitched yesterday, I hope all goes well.
I brewed another big beer over the weekend with the method you (fearwig) described by infusing to a single saccrification rest temp then firing up again for mashout. I had a little heat loss, and only fired up again for about 60-90 seconds about 2/3rds through the hour I rested at. I pitched yesterday, I hope all goes well.
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