Moving up to 25 Gal batches

[98EXL]

Guess I'll take the blame for this one...

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't see any reason for his outlash......

 

[bigben]

You're such a meany BierMuncher

 

[Bobby_M]

I think we're all a bunch of EACs and it takes a newcomer to make us realize it. We're already so accustomed to the snobbery.

 

[jdoiv]

Wow SalmonSlayer, that is an awesome setup! There ya go all you naysayers. It can be done.

I would have to agree with BobbyM on scaling things up. Maybe do some 5 gallon or 3 gallon PM recipes to get an idea if you are going to like it before going full bore.

Also note that the larger the batch size, the SRM will lighten. If you have brewing software, try taking one of your recipes at 5 gallons and scaling it up to say 500 gallons. Big difference in color. Not sure if it would be noticeable in a 25 gallon batch, but something to consider.

 

[rohanski]

Ease up on this poor guy. He's a brother homebrewer and he just wants a little help. Thinking big can be a good thing I see nothing wrong with that. SWMBO thinks big.
I might have the wrong read on you but I think you are new to homebrewing and you and your friends think the beer tastes great so you all want to get together as buds on the weekend and make beer. Damn good Idea! My suggestion is that since you are doing DME just boil and cool 10 gallons. This is how much AG guys do regularly. Then mix it with 15 gallons of cool water. Simple and cheap.
Don't be discouraged grasshopper.

 

[Salmon Slayer]

Negatives of a big brewery:

1. Brew days are brutal. There is a lot of work to do and a lot of waiting while water heats, wort boils. I normally start about 7:30 and wrap up cleaning around 5:00. I am ready for a few pints by then.

2. Ever forget a hop addition? No big deal with 5 gallons but if you are brewing a big batch and trying to get it perfect then you have to live with your mistake for 45 gallons worth of pints.

3. Lots of extra cost in cleaning/sanitizing/expendable supplies.

4. You have to plan your brew days meticulosly.

5. Ever toss 5 gallons of bew because it wasn't any good? Try doing that with 45!

6. Ingredients for a 5 gallon batch most anyone can purchase without budgeting. Try that with a 45 gallon batch.

Hint: Buy a large 100lb propane tank as the smaller ones will freeze.

Pros:

1. Lots of beer on tap.

2. Legal way of killing neighbors thru liver abuse.

3. You can show off your big brewery.

 

[rohanski]

I like #3. It's all about form.

 

[jdoiv]

I'm curious SalmonSlayer. How long does it take to bring the wort to boil?

Ever think of rigging up a hard pipe from the MLT to the kettle that you could heat (think flash water heater)?

I think heating that much liquid would be my main concern. A large steam jacketed kettle seems like it would be the best solution.

 

[Salmon Slayer]

It leaves the MLT at 168-170 into the kettle. I have the burner under kettle on low while I continue to sparge (when fly sparging) and try to keep the wort about 190 until I get the full volume into the kettle. From there it takes approx 15 minutes to bring 30 gallons to boil and 25-30 minutes to bring 45 gallons to boil.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

WOW?!!
Glad to see that everyone in this forum is so open minded and willing to help!
So... guess I'll get no advice from anyone with any experience in this kind of situation.
Brew your batches... 10 gal at a time. Don't expand and if you do, you have to do AG, you have to spend $4000, you have to have 40 extra kegs, you won't drink it fast enough...
Thanks for all the help!

Hey man, don't be so sensitive. Everyone's trying to help, and they're just being honest. I don't think anyone here brews extract on the sort of scale you suggest, and there are probably a handful pretty good reasons for that. If nothing else, folks are just trying to help you get a kick ass brewery for the money you seem to be willing to spend. Take 'er easy.

Obviously you want to brew big, and you want to brew all grain. So, it seems natural to me to spend the cash on an AG system right now. In fact, with the kind of money you're suggesting, you can really get some sweet equipment. Northern Brewer has some nice stainless kettles for prices that rival the aluminum one you found (I'd choose stainless for durability alone - I don't get involved with the rest of the silly metal debate). A cooler mash tun and copper manifold will suit you well - get a big rectangular one, and you'll be set up for 10-25 gallon batches. As for chilling the wort, go with a CFC or plate chiller. Immersion chillers become expensive and unwieldy at the scale you're talking about. One other thing - if you're moving that much wort, you'll probably want a pump. Look into a magnetic drive pump from March. I'll leave you with one final question - how are you going to control the temperature of the fermentation?

Now, RDWHAHB, and come back to the discussion when you've cooled off a bit.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I regularly brew 45 gallon batches. Mashing in a 150 qt cooler:

...


My biggest problem is controlling fermentation temps. A 40-45 gallon batch of beer will ferment at about 10 degrees warmer than ambient, therefore I can only brew in the late fall/winter/early spring when ambient temps in my garage are between 50-58 degrees.

hahahhahahahahahahhahahahahha Some truly, killer EAC comments on this dude and then a brand new guy signs up and shows us pictures of his 45 gallon setup he does in his garage. That 150qt cooler full of grain is some serious beer porn. you rock Salmon, you are officially my new hero.

 

[shafferpilot]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

 

[EdWort]

You're such a meany BierMuncher

Actually he's a nice guy who makes good beer!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

Yup! Sounds good. You probably couldn't lager in a 70 degree room with a setup like that, but you could certainly keep your ales in check. If you cooled the ambient temp to around 60, I bet you could lager, too!

 

[Salmon Slayer]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

There is one thing I have learned over the years; the KISS concept. What I really need to do is buckle down and buy a fridge/freezer large enough to put the fermenter in. I already have the controller.

Of course, I can brew enough in the brew season to keep me in beer thru the summer. There has been more than once my 20 cornies have been full, and more in the fermenters waiting for empty cornies.

 

[shafferpilot]

I just had an idea about grain disposal. A commercial grade garbage disposal could be mounted to the bottom of a mash tun under a large ball valve. Crank her up and use plenty of water.

 

[Salmon Slayer]

I just had an idea about grain disposal. A commercial grade garbage disposal could be mounted to the bottom of a mash tun under a large ball valve. Crank her up and use plenty of water.

My rig has a tippy dump system. The mash tun is in a metal cradle which has 2 round pieces welded on top of the cradle which then sits on the frame in a V. I just tip into a wheelbarrow and then wheel it to the compost bed.

 

[shafferpilot]

sweet. did you get the balance right so it tips easily?

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Yeah, Yeah... Guess I shouldn't have been so skeptical.
There obviously are a lot of people experienced in the endeavor I'm about to endure.
A couple of questions that I'm really wondering:
It seems the "keggle" is the more popular for both mashing and boiling on the larger scale? For this scale, w/ the plan to convert to AG, would the pot be worth the investment?
Is the SP10 going to be able to boil that amount of water in a reasonable time frame? Has anybody used it for this size or bigger batches?
Has anybody ever used PE tanks for fermentation? I can also get a 98 gallon tank for not a hole lot more money, but is there any problems with the amount of air in tank(would I need to purge w/ CO2)?
If I were to create a glycol counterflow chiller, how big of a reservoir would I need? Maybe a rough idea of OD and length of refrigeration tubing? Glycol, is that ethylene glycol - aka RV Antifreeze?
Anybody used PIN LOCK tanks vs. ball lock?


I realize that my questions are detailed. I'll probably be posting new threads for most of them to get more specialized consideration. I do thank those of you that have provided me, not only with some good information, but also some real inspiration!

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Keggle only holds 15gals, you will need something much bigger for 25 gals.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Has anybody any experience of large batches of extract brewing?
I'm thinking about brewing 25 gallons with mostly LME and some DME.
Has anybody moved from large batches of extract to large batches of all grain?
Any recommendations of equipment that will work well for the big batches of extract, then convert easily to AG?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I brew 15 gallon AG batches, and I find that to be a pretty comfortable volume. So, I think I'm reasonably qualified to post here.

Keggles are absolutely worth the investment, but not if you want to brew 25 gallons. The max you could reasonably brew with a keggle setup is about 12 gallons. However, you can potentially save a TON of cash with keggles if you have some metalworking skills/tools and a cheap source for kegs. So, that's something to consider.

Use a 20 psi regulator/burner setup. The 10 psi rigs aren't gonna cut it for a big boil (larger than 10 gallons, IMHO).

Dude, unless you wanna brew 80+ gallons at a time, stick to the 35 gallon fermenter. I can't come up with a good reason to have a 98 gallon tank in a homebrewery. As for the plastic, I have no experience with that.

My brew buddy uses a glycol jacketed fermenter. His reservoir is a small chest freezer chock full of antifreeze. Technically, you should use a food grade glycol (not sure exactly which kind), but antifreeze works. Just be ABSOLUTELY SURE there are no leaks in the system.

I think Bobby M uses pin lock kegs. Most of us use ball locks - they're a bit easier to find, generally.

 

[Nwcw2001]

I just did 25 gallons of my Belgian Dubbel. I used keggles to boil and kegs to ferment in.

Did two batches of 12.5 gallons.

I will be doing secondary in 55 gallon blue plastic drum that the LHB shop had the extract in!

John

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

With a PE tank, I could potentially install a "glycol immersion chiller" into the fermenter on a tstat. In this low efficiency required(vs wort chilling) system, any thoughts on if maybe CPVC or Pex may work? Copper is SO expensive right now, maybe even aluminum?

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I just did 25 gallons of my Belgian Dubbel. I used keggles to boil and kegs to ferment in.

Did two batches of 12.5 gallons.

I will be doing secondary in 55 gallon blue plastic drum that the LHB shop had the extract in!

John

I'm guessing this was an AG batch? What would you estimate the time spent VS. a 5g or 10g batch?
Or is that what you meant by "the extract in"?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

PVC of any sort will make a terrible heat exchanger - it's not conductive enough. Aluminum could work. Its thermal conductivity is less than copper but still many times that of stainless steel. Almost any metal is worlds better than plastic.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm guessing this was an AG batch? What would you estimate the time spent VS. a 5g or 10g batch?

The time is roughly equivalent whether you brew 1 gallon or 50 gallons on an all grain setup. That's why many of us scale our brew operation up a bit when moving to all grain. It takes just a little more work to produce a lot more beer.

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Personally I would not even be interested in doing such a huge batch with extract. To even make it happen, you're going to be investing a lot of money in equipment, so you might as well do it right and go straight to AG.

Not to cast any judgement, but in my mind, if you're only brewing with extract but have the $$ and space to even consider 25-gallon batches, then I would assume that the only reason you haven't gone to AG already is inexperience or something - in which case, I think you'd be much better off spending the time to learn to do AG brewing (and just generally get more experienced in brewing in general) before thinking about switching to such huge batches. After all, ending up with a 5-gallon batch that didn't turn out so well isn't a huge deal, but what the heck would you do if a 25-gallon batch turned out bad? If it takes you months to go through a single batch, it doesn't exactly help promote rapid experimentation and learning.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Try here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=42772

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Personally I would not even be interested in doing such a huge batch with extract. To even make it happen, you're going to be investing a lot of money in equipment, so you might as well do it right and go straight to AG.

A lot of the equipment that is necessary for large scale extract is the same equipment, or can be adapted for AG brewing later, right?