Moving up to 25 Gal batches

[Ó Flannagáin]

I regularly brew 45 gallon batches. Mashing in a 150 qt cooler:

...


My biggest problem is controlling fermentation temps. A 40-45 gallon batch of beer will ferment at about 10 degrees warmer than ambient, therefore I can only brew in the late fall/winter/early spring when ambient temps in my garage are between 50-58 degrees.

hahahhahahahahahahhahahahahha Some truly, killer EAC comments on this dude and then a brand new guy signs up and shows us pictures of his 45 gallon setup he does in his garage. That 150qt cooler full of grain is some serious beer porn. you rock Salmon, you are officially my new hero.

 

[shafferpilot]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

 

[EdWort]

You're such a meany BierMuncher

Actually he's a nice guy who makes good beer!

 

[Yuri_Rage]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

Yup! Sounds good. You probably couldn't lager in a 70 degree room with a setup like that, but you could certainly keep your ales in check. If you cooled the ambient temp to around 60, I bet you could lager, too!

 

[Salmon Slayer]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

There is one thing I have learned over the years; the KISS concept. What I really need to do is buckle down and buy a fridge/freezer large enough to put the fermenter in. I already have the controller.

Of course, I can brew enough in the brew season to keep me in beer thru the summer. There has been more than once my 20 cornies have been full, and more in the fermenters waiting for empty cornies.

 

[shafferpilot]

I just had an idea about grain disposal. A commercial grade garbage disposal could be mounted to the bottom of a mash tun under a large ball valve. Crank her up and use plenty of water.

 

[Salmon Slayer]

I just had an idea about grain disposal. A commercial grade garbage disposal could be mounted to the bottom of a mash tun under a large ball valve. Crank her up and use plenty of water.

My rig has a tippy dump system. The mash tun is in a metal cradle which has 2 round pieces welded on top of the cradle which then sits on the frame in a V. I just tip into a wheelbarrow and then wheel it to the compost bed.

 

[shafferpilot]

sweet. did you get the balance right so it tips easily?

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Yeah, Yeah... Guess I shouldn't have been so skeptical.
There obviously are a lot of people experienced in the endeavor I'm about to endure.
A couple of questions that I'm really wondering:
It seems the "keggle" is the more popular for both mashing and boiling on the larger scale? For this scale, w/ the plan to convert to AG, would the pot be worth the investment?
Is the SP10 going to be able to boil that amount of water in a reasonable time frame? Has anybody used it for this size or bigger batches?
Has anybody ever used PE tanks for fermentation? I can also get a 98 gallon tank for not a hole lot more money, but is there any problems with the amount of air in tank(would I need to purge w/ CO2)?
If I were to create a glycol counterflow chiller, how big of a reservoir would I need? Maybe a rough idea of OD and length of refrigeration tubing? Glycol, is that ethylene glycol - aka RV Antifreeze?
Anybody used PIN LOCK tanks vs. ball lock?


I realize that my questions are detailed. I'll probably be posting new threads for most of them to get more specialized consideration. I do thank those of you that have provided me, not only with some good information, but also some real inspiration!

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Keggle only holds 15gals, you will need something much bigger for 25 gals.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Has anybody any experience of large batches of extract brewing?
I'm thinking about brewing 25 gallons with mostly LME and some DME.
Has anybody moved from large batches of extract to large batches of all grain?
Any recommendations of equipment that will work well for the big batches of extract, then convert easily to AG?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I brew 15 gallon AG batches, and I find that to be a pretty comfortable volume. So, I think I'm reasonably qualified to post here.

Keggles are absolutely worth the investment, but not if you want to brew 25 gallons. The max you could reasonably brew with a keggle setup is about 12 gallons. However, you can potentially save a TON of cash with keggles if you have some metalworking skills/tools and a cheap source for kegs. So, that's something to consider.

Use a 20 psi regulator/burner setup. The 10 psi rigs aren't gonna cut it for a big boil (larger than 10 gallons, IMHO).

Dude, unless you wanna brew 80+ gallons at a time, stick to the 35 gallon fermenter. I can't come up with a good reason to have a 98 gallon tank in a homebrewery. As for the plastic, I have no experience with that.

My brew buddy uses a glycol jacketed fermenter. His reservoir is a small chest freezer chock full of antifreeze. Technically, you should use a food grade glycol (not sure exactly which kind), but antifreeze works. Just be ABSOLUTELY SURE there are no leaks in the system.

I think Bobby M uses pin lock kegs. Most of us use ball locks - they're a bit easier to find, generally.

 

[Nwcw2001]

I just did 25 gallons of my Belgian Dubbel. I used keggles to boil and kegs to ferment in.

Did two batches of 12.5 gallons.

I will be doing secondary in 55 gallon blue plastic drum that the LHB shop had the extract in!

John

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

awesome setup. I have an idea for controlling fermentation temp. Use a plug in thermostat, to operate an aquarium pump, that circulates glycol (antifreeze) from a container in the freezer through what looks like a big immersion chiller in the fermentor. I understand that that design doesn't work for chilling that much wort after the boil, but keeping the fermenter in check could work.

With a PE tank, I could potentially install a "glycol immersion chiller" into the fermenter on a tstat. In this low efficiency required(vs wort chilling) system, any thoughts on if maybe CPVC or Pex may work? Copper is SO expensive right now, maybe even aluminum?

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I just did 25 gallons of my Belgian Dubbel. I used keggles to boil and kegs to ferment in.

Did two batches of 12.5 gallons.

I will be doing secondary in 55 gallon blue plastic drum that the LHB shop had the extract in!

John

I'm guessing this was an AG batch? What would you estimate the time spent VS. a 5g or 10g batch?
Or is that what you meant by "the extract in"?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

PVC of any sort will make a terrible heat exchanger - it's not conductive enough. Aluminum could work. Its thermal conductivity is less than copper but still many times that of stainless steel. Almost any metal is worlds better than plastic.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm guessing this was an AG batch? What would you estimate the time spent VS. a 5g or 10g batch?

The time is roughly equivalent whether you brew 1 gallon or 50 gallons on an all grain setup. That's why many of us scale our brew operation up a bit when moving to all grain. It takes just a little more work to produce a lot more beer.

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Personally I would not even be interested in doing such a huge batch with extract. To even make it happen, you're going to be investing a lot of money in equipment, so you might as well do it right and go straight to AG.

Not to cast any judgement, but in my mind, if you're only brewing with extract but have the $$ and space to even consider 25-gallon batches, then I would assume that the only reason you haven't gone to AG already is inexperience or something - in which case, I think you'd be much better off spending the time to learn to do AG brewing (and just generally get more experienced in brewing in general) before thinking about switching to such huge batches. After all, ending up with a 5-gallon batch that didn't turn out so well isn't a huge deal, but what the heck would you do if a 25-gallon batch turned out bad? If it takes you months to go through a single batch, it doesn't exactly help promote rapid experimentation and learning.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Try here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=42772

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Personally I would not even be interested in doing such a huge batch with extract. To even make it happen, you're going to be investing a lot of money in equipment, so you might as well do it right and go straight to AG.

A lot of the equipment that is necessary for large scale extract is the same equipment, or can be adapted for AG brewing later, right?

 

[TheJadedDog]

I'm honestly curious as to why you would want to do this? AG brewing is not any more complicated than extract brewing and if you have the ability to brew 25 gallons at a time, just go AG.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I'm honestly curious as to why you would want to do this? AG brewing is not any more complicated than extract brewing and if you have the ability to brew 25 gallons at a time, just go AG.

Clean & sanitize everything, boil 31g (steep if nec), dump ME into the 40g boiling kettle, hop, boil, hop, cool, ferment, and keg

With AG in the future, this should be a good way to produce a large volume(w/ a good initial investment) that will last or convert to a good AG system, RIGHT?

 

[Nwcw2001]

I'm guessing this was an AG batch? What would you estimate the time spent VS. a 5g or 10g batch?
Or is that what you meant by "the extract in"?

This was AG. 63# of grain and 10# of sugar!
I did an experiment with this batch. I did the 20min mash and hit my target pretty well.

The "the extract in" was meaning the barrels that my LBHS gets all it's liquid extract in blue 55gallon barrels like this one

John

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Check this out

http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9288

 

[BierMuncher]

... Guess I shouldn't have been so skeptical.
There obviously are a lot of people experienced in the endeavor I'm about to endure....

Heh 5isnotenough, sorry if I came accross as some sort of holier-than-thow EAC type.

Ya just caught me off guard...

But you're still bonkers

 

[eviljafar]

However, you can potentially save a TON of cash with keggles if you have some metalworking skills/tools and a cheap source for kegs. So, that's something to consider.

Ever since I saw your video of you cutting the top off a sankey with a plasma torch I've been wondering ... do you have a sister?

I'm married but I've divorced once and I'd do it again for a girl that can weld stainless steel and has a great workshop. True love is making more beer.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

Heh 5isnotenough, sorry if I came accross as some sort of holier-than-thow EAC type.

Ya just caught me off guard...

But you're still bonkers

Yeah dude, same here. That said, I'd seriously consider going AG.

And Salmonslayer, 45 gallon batches? you rock!

So WTF? Do you just brew a 5 gallon batch for the starter?

Seriously, how much yeast do you pitch?

 

[Salmon Slayer]

Dry yeast. 1 pack per 5 gallons. S-04 and S-05 are pretty decent yeast.

 

[Jaybird]

I say if you want to brew 25 gallons of extract and move to AG later FU(K go for it brother and god speed let us know how your doing with it. there are some things to concider as I am sure you know. I mean your no noob!!! I am but I will TRY to lend a helping hand where I can. for a 25 gal batch your going to need about 250,000 btu and thats just a rough guess using some silly little chart I got. and since your not mashing your starting from cold and its gonna take some time to heat but once you start mashing your gonna start from about 165 or so. Remember the tier HLT, MT, and BK I might suggest a grant and a pump but thats just me. I dont think an IC is gonna do ya without a pre chiller but I still would suggest a CFC and a aireating system of some sort maybe even go pure O2 and a reg. I like the idea of the fermenter probably going to need to find away to control INSIDE ferment temp maybe a small home built box (insulated of course) and a way to raise for a diacetyl rest if you so desire. there a bunch of toys that most of us use here like ph meters, barley crushers, scales, tubing galore and fittings like you wouldnt believe. There are a tun of hidden costs that most of us have endured over a long period of time that you WILL just have to jump in head first and buy. Like a BIG pot (or 2 small pots but thats not really brewing 25 gallons) for your BK probably 30+ gallons ( I want to see your first boil over)for your MT I think the 125 will do ya and for a HLT youll need Oh maybe a keggle will do but for extract you wont have to worry about those for a bit. Hay fellow brewer RDWHAHB and Damn loose the TUDE if its help you want then heed the advice you asked for like a big boy and rebuttle with some forthought. Like I said before "go for it" youll find your way. this is a hobby so its suposed to be a learning experiance and most of all FUN
Cheers
JJ

 

[olllllo]

I missed this thread today.

It looks like alot of people got ticked off and a tremendous amount of good information was posted. 68 posts in the better part of a day, unreal.

If anyone thinks such a confrontational shaming style is a blueprint for getting information from the wealth of experienced folks on this site, they will quickly be on the outside looking in.

We all get a mulligan on this one.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I missed this thread today.

It looks like alot of people got ticked off and a tremendous amount of good information was posted. 68 posts in the better part of a day, unreal.

If anyone thinks such a confrontational shaming style is a blueprint for getting information from the wealth of experienced folks on this site, they will quickly be on the outside looking in.

We all get a mulligan on this one.

The information may or may not have been worth a little irritation...
Fact of the matter: everybody repeating everybody else wasn't going to get me anywhere...

I'll try to check myself next time...

 

[teu1003]

Three or four times a year, my brew club does a 90 gallon brew, using 2 55-gallon stainless drums. We cool the wort and divide it into 5 gallon batches to the first 18 members who sign up and bring a fermenter.

The brew-day is endless, usually 12 to 14 hours, and this is with a lot of hands helping. The water in the drums takes about a minute per degree to heat -- so taking 70 degree water to strike temp takes nearly 2 hours.

At days end, you put up $20 - $25, and take your sore back and fermenter home to tend your treasure as you please.

The commeraderie makes the day worthwhile, and also tasting the beers/wines/meads, etc. everyone inevitably brings to share.

Before you embark on your project, maybe you and your friends can look for a brew club who does similar large scale brewing, and will let you watch and help.

For what its worth, I have a 15 gallon kettle and other than the occasional co-brew with a friend, I rarely make more than 5 gallon batches. I kinda enjoy the process and would rather make 2 five gallons batches than one 10.

 

[shafferpilot]

I had a couple thought last night, while laying in bed thinking about Edwort's new brewhut, about heating large volumes of fluid like this (completely unrelated, I know; it's just how my brain works). I think the problem is that when you go bigger and bigger, the volume of water increases at an exponential rate, while surface area of the pot increases linearly (ie double the fluid volume but only increase surface area by 1.3 or something like that). Therefore, it takes longer to transfer enough heat to get to the temp you want. I had three separate ideas. First a set of vertical pipes in the pot welded over holes in the bottom. Then the hot gases from the burner can travel through the pipes instead of going around the sides of the pot, and the pipe's surface area would increase surface area contact with the fluid. Second was fins like a radiator welded onto the inside of the pot around the sides. Again, the idea is to increase surface area contact with the fluid. Lastly, a double walled pot like a steam kettle, but instead of putting high pressure steam in the jacket, put your fire in there. I notice that with a propane burner, a TON of heat flies right past the pot and collects between the floor joists in my basement and the top of the stairwell. Perhaps trapping some of that heat and keeping it close to the pot increases heat transfer. Of course copper for the inner wall is preferrable since it transfers heat better, but if you think a 55 gallon SS pot is expensive........

 

[Bobby_M]

I thought a little more about this and I'm thinking that running two back to back 12 gallon batches in one day would be a more scalable solution.

If you think about this in terms of extract only, it adds quite a bit of time to the brew day. However, once you cross over to all grain, you simply stagger it so that you begin your next mash shortly after you begin boiling your first 12. The benefit is that half the system is still practical for a single 5 or 10 gallon batch. You certainly wouldn't try a 5 gallon batch in a 30 gallon kettle.

You can get away with using keggles instead of really pricy 30 gallon kettles. You'd need two burners, but they could be of manageable size.

If you're really set on a 30 gallon kettle, I'd be looking around for a steam jacketed kettle. Running a huge burner under a huge pot is an incredible waste of fuel.
What state are you in 5isnotenough?

 

[Wort*hog]

Dont feel alone 5isnotenough. I am going to do the same thing. I'm going to get a 30 gallon mix fill conical tank from us plastics. The 33lb extract purchase is just right for a 25gal brew. Its not as cheap as you can go but for ease and economy it's not bad. i wont boil the whole thing. Just 7.5 gallons of water and the extract with the hops. the rest cold water. just like doing a True Brew(tm) kit It should fit in my 11gal s.s. pot 5x the hops 5x the yeast. simple! Why? Boom one brewday and I got everybody that comes by for a beer taken care of. Those who really like and deserve a great beer can enjoy my AG beer in five gal batches. I have no problem picking up more kegs have 17 already. Of all the advice I read online when it comes to brewing I like the best is that that say simple methods make great beer. Do what you want. It will work.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I'd thought that 10 kegs would have sufficed, but I keep hearing emphasis on more kegs. My thought was that with a batch this large, I'd not want to have back-to-back batches going into storage. I realize the necessity to age the beer, but I wouldn't exactly run out before the next was done.

So, I'm wondering,
Those that do large batches, what type of ratio do you feel comfortable with?
(ie. 25 gallons = 10 kegs, 20 kegs?)

 

[rohanski]

Can you just use a water heater turned up real high for the strike water and sparge? I don't know how high they go but I know they heat up pretty fast.

 

[Wort*hog]

My thought on it is you get a bunch of brewing out of the way so you can hone and specialize on specialty beers. Had a few large parties this summer and ran out. Had to make a $200.00 beer run in the middle of a party. Bought a variety of 3.2 utah beer. Very unsatisfying to me but it was standard fair for the party goers. They were happy with it. Why not brew mega batches for them and get it out of the way? Home brew is like sex. The worst I ever had was fantastic!

20 kegs is good. The more the better. I wish my home had appreciated as much as my kegs have in the past year. Last year I got 4 from More Beer (tm) for $80 not they're $120. Do the math!

 

[B-Dub]

Just my 2 cents.

I brew 2-13 gallon batches most brew days. That nets me 4 five gallon kegs of good beer. It takes me 7 to 8 hours from start to finish.

Hear is a picture of my setup. BW Brewing

Before building the brew stand my back would be pretty sore after lifting all the water and mash.

14 kegs= 5 kegs on tap, 4 in conditioning fridge (34deg), I can transfer the 4 fermenters into kegs and cool in ferm fridge and 1 of Tree Top Apple Hooch

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I started out 7-8 years ago doing AG on a B3 rig doing 10 gallons, so I started out bigger than most and doing AG from the get go (and fly sparging too, just how I learned). Having said that I got back into it a couple years ago, simple 5g setup doing extract. I got tired of running out much as you have. I sat down and thought about it, ended up getting a kegging setup first because bottling sucks and takes a lot of time. This helped, as extract I could do two batches a day easy. I then got a 30g kettle off Instawares ($115) and did 20 gallon partial mash batches while building the MLT (120qt cooler), between getting it planned and built I bet I did 3-4 20 gallon partial mashes, so it can be done. I was using a 50 foot IC, this I would NOT recommend, it takes forever. Next step was getting back to AG, used two 5g HLTs and swapped between them to fly sparge, not recommended, pain. Got pumps to make things easier. Got another 30 gallon HLT, much less pain. I just use 4 6.5 gallon carboys per batch, but I am going towards conicals. Check out Norwesco inductor tanks, several threads on people using inductor tanks to make plastic conicals. In other words, it can be done. I will say, be very diligent on brew day and triple check your recipes. Also, order grain in bulk with some local brewers, saves you a ton. Get your sparging down to maximize your efficiency, this will save a lot of grain per batch. Obviously learning how to do AG and get good efficiency would be better served with 10g batches, which you CAN do in the 30g+ kettles. In other words, you can get a big kettle and do extract and keg it while building the AG setup. It IS the reverse of what most brewers are going to tell you.