Move from extract to all-grain brewing

[Calder]

I believe a 5 gallon batch makes around 2 cases of beer. You can buy decent craft beer for not much more than the prices I'm seeing in some of these comments. The value from home brewing must come from doing something you like to do.

It's a shame the hobby is not more economical. I have been making wine for a long time and you can make very high end product for much less than you can buy commercially.

If you really get into the hobby, you will be buying hops in bulk, re-using yeast, and will make beer much cheaper than store bought. My average beer is 6%+, I make a lot of hoppy beers, averaging about 6 ozs of hops a batch over all types I make, and my cost for ingredients results in roughly 30 cents a bottle. I (and others - who may be biased due to free beer) think I make pretty decent beer.

Now wine on the other hand. To me it seems all the juice kits you buy will give you wine more expensive than decent cheap wine you can buy. And then there is the risk of ruining a batch which only increases the cost. I'd probably try it, if it seemed worth while, but from looking at costs for juice on-line, it doesn't seem worth it. You obviously have more experience than I do.

Unless you're brewing on a large scale, I don't think All grain is going to be more cost effective really. Or to make it so, you have to store lots of different types of grain and hops, which i'm not willing to do. At my LHBS, I can make a beer for around $25-50 depending on how many hops, that's usually the kicker. If I harvested yeast, that could be cheaper as well, but I don't want to store a bunch of yeasts or compromise a style because I have something else that will work on hand.

If you factor in all the equipment and associated stuff we buy for brewing, it doesn't usually boil down to being cheaper, but for most people, the control over the process, creativity associated with it and the pride of brewing it yourself is what makes us brew.

It is way cheaper for me. Part of the hobby is to try and minimize cost. Over the past 6 years, including equipment, and lots of grain and hops I have yet to use, my cost per bottle if I stopped today averages 50 cents. many of my beers stack up well against expensive craft beers, Belgian beers, and Lambic and Flanders styles, so I think I'm way cheaper than buying similar beer.

You probably should preface this statement with, " in my experience".

With BIAB efficiencies in excess of 80% are readily achievable. I'm not trying to knock you its just that it is one of the most commonly touted myths of BIAB, that low efficiency is the norm. I find 80 plus efficiency and consistency to be the norm. That is brew house efficiency with accurate measures of volume to the FV and Gravity.

Mash efficiencies in excess of 90% are my experience.

I too held this demonstrably incorrect view when I first started BIAB.

I'm sure with good methods batch sparging can result in equally favorable efficiency and consistency.

You probably should preface this statement with, " in my experience". No! I actually said I have limited boil volume, and that is why I batch sparge, because it is more efficient. I'm sure with sufficient volume of water you can get pretty good efficiency from BIAB, but using the same volume of water, you will get better efficiency from batch sparge. Simple math will tell you that batch sparge will yield higher efficiencies than a single volume BIAB.

If you want to compare efficiencies, my last batch was a Pale Ale, mostly 2-row with a little light crystal. 8 lbs of grain total. 18.75 quarts of water used for the mash and sparge, 16 quarts in the pot, and 90% efficiency. If I had the ability to boil more than 4 gallons, I could push the efficiency higher. I challenge you to get 90% efficiency from BIAB with 8 lbs of grain and 18.75 quarts of water. NOTE: This was an unusually high efficiency for me, I'm usually running 85% for that volume of liquid.

 

[Gavin C]

@calder

Steady on there old chap. Calm down

I think you may be misunderstanding efficiency calculations. It matters not a jot what your mash volumes are for brewhouse efficiency so your numbers are meaningless.

You need to know two things to calculate BH efficiency
1: How much sugars can the grains yield
2: How much sugars are in the FV

1 can be calculated based on the potential gravity points in a given grain bill
2 can be calculated by measuring two things

• volume to fermenter
• gravity of the wort in the fermenter prior to pitching yeast

Anyway, never mind, it was not my intent to provoke anger, nor create a tangent in the thread. I merely wanted to rebut the point; the purported inefficiency of BIAB, and allow the OP to assess things.

Sounds like your having an enjoyable time with your process. Well done. I think a more measured approach to discussion is not without its merits however. Something to take away from this thread perhaps.

 

[gregmosu]

I was saying FERMENTATION temp, not the bottling. When you brew your beers, where do you keep the carboy/bucket? Most experienced brewers keep it in an area or container where they can control the temperatures of the fermenting beer. Often a chest freezer or fridge with a temp controller to keep it in the prime range, or a brewbag they put ice packs in.

I'm not sure what your second statement means. You should still want to control the temp, unless it's a fridge that is meant to keep kegs cool, many people use chest freezers so they have a controller to keep temp cold, not freezing. I Iike to share my beer and having it bottled makes it easier to grab and go. It can be done with a keg but you need to bottle it up in a growler or use a bottling wand/tubing and cap it.

Here's what I've been doing:

Primary fermentation is done in a bucket. I've been keeping it in a closet that seems to stay right around 70 degrees no matter what. I have the thermometer on the side of the bucket that I check from time to time just to be sure.

Secondary fermentation is done in that same closet, but in a glass carboy this time.

So far, each batch seems to have turned out very well. But please let me know if there's something I can improve upon.

Ok, so my statement about kegging.. Right after secondary fermentation, I would bottle everything and put those bottles back in the closet for another few weeks. This is the part of the process I want to change. Instead of bottling, I want to go right from secondary fermentation to a keg so that I can avoid the 3-4 week wait for the bottles to carb up.

 

[gregmosu]

So last night I went to my LHBS and ended up getting a recipe and some ingredients for what they called a mild ale... it has a super simple recipe. What I also ended up doing was picking up some orange bitters and citrus hop as well.

The ingredients for this recipe are: 3lbs of marris otter LME, 1lb Light DME. Grains: 1lb Caramel 60L, 1/2lb Chocolate. Hops: Uk Goldings.

With 15 minutes of boiling left I added 1/2oz of orange bitters. I also have a 1/2oz of citrus hops that I plan to dry hop with.

Any thoughts on this process? Was orange a bad choice for a beer that is not really a pale ale?

 

[Gavin C]

...

Secondary fermentation is done in that same closet, but in a glass carboy this time.

So far, each batch seems to have turned out very well. But please let me know if there's something I can improve upon.

You could eliminate the transfer to a seconary vessel if you so desired. Simplify the process a little with no downside.

Perhaps a swamp cooler or wet towel around the FV to lower the temps into the 60's might be beneficial also.

Things to consider.

 

[christyle]

Agreed on the transferring comments, I only transfer when adding fruits that would splash enough to oxygenate the beer. Is the carboy not giving enough head space for you to ferment in? If the closet is only getting down to 70 it will keep you from being able to make certain beers true to style, and lagers will be impossible. Look into the STC-1000 temp controller on Amazon. Great item, I love mine for controlling my freezer temp.

As far as recipe goes, I'm not too familiar with that beer, but the best part about Homebrewing is experimenting! I bought 2- 3 gallon fermentors to split batches and experiment with additives and dry hops. Its a lot of fun.

 

[gregmosu]

@gavin c - Into the 60s? Is that ideal? I think I got advice from someone saying you need temps between 70 and 80.

@christyle - I though certain additives needed to be boiled in. You can put additives in the fermentation bucket just like dry hopping?

 

[christyle]

I would venture to say MOST beers are ideal in the 60s. A few Belgian styles like 70-80, but that will give off bad flavors for most yeasts. Every yeast is different, and your intended style will affect it (more banana flavors in your Hefe? Stress the yeast with temp or underpitching).

There definitely are a lot of changes you can do in the boil, but dry hopping, wood, rum/whiskey/bourbon, fruits, coffee, extracts, etc are generally done in secondary.

 

[BigFloyd]

@gavin c - Into the 60s? Is that ideal? I think I got advice from someone saying you need temps between 70 and 80.

That's awful advice unless you're using one of the very few (mostly Belgian) strains of yeast that ferment we'll at those temps. Most of the commonly used ale yeasts produce the best result in the low-mid 60's (that's beer temp, not ambient air temp).

 

[Gavin C]

That's awful advice unless you're using one of the very few (mostly Belgian) strains of yeast that ferment we'll at those temps. Most of the commonly used ale yeasts produce the best result in the low-mid 60's (that's beer temp, not ambient air temp).

I would beg to differ. My advice to the OP was to ferment ales in the 60's. I don't believe that is incorrect advice. The manufacturers' websites are replete with information regarding optimal temperatures for their yeasts. I tend to start at the lower end of these ranges and ramp temperatures up as fermentation slows in an effort to allow maximal attenuation.

Some ale strains do well at higher temperatures. One example would be yeasts used to make Saisons. This is a belgian sub-style that I have never made.

Some ale yeasts can even be used at near lagering temperatures. I just made a lager with a Kolsch yeast and pitched at 56, fermenting at 58 until 50% attenuation was reached.

In summary, don't take my word for it. I believe my advice to be sound and good practice. Check the website of the yeast you use. Remember, the limits of a yeasts range are not the ideal.

 

[christyle]

Pretty positive he was talking about the 70-80 degree advice. Not yours. Your comments mirror his, and mine

 

[Gavin C]

Pretty positive he was talking about the 70-80 degree advice. Not yours. Your comments mirror his, and mine

Your absolutely right. Reading it again I see, although my name was mentioned it was the advice after it taht was at issue.

My apologies @BigFloyd for my needless post. Sounds like we are all on the same page.

 

[BigFloyd]

I would beg to differ. My advice to the OP was to ferment ales in the 60's. I don't believe that is incorrect advice. The manufacturers' websites are replete with information regarding optimal temperatures for their yeasts. I tend to start at the lower end of these ranges and ramp temperatures up as fermentation slows in an effort to allow maximal attenuation.

Some ale strains do well at higher temperatures. One example would be yeasts used to make Saisons. This is a belgian sub-style that I have never made.

Some ale yeasts can even be used at near lagering temperatures. I just made a lager with a Kolsch yeast and pitched at 56, fermenting at 58 until 50% attenuation was reached.

In summary, don't take my word for it. I believe my advice to be sound and good practice. Check the website of the yeast you use. Remember, the limits of a yeasts range are not the ideal.

Gavin - sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. I was actually agreeing 100% with you and strongly disagreeing with the other (bad) advice the OP got from someone telling him to ferment his ales between 70 and 80 degrees.

Your absolutely right. Reading it again I see, although my name was mentioned it was the advice after it taht was at issue.

My apologies @BigFloyd for my needless post. Sounds like we are all on the same page.

No worries. You and I are singing the same song brother.

 

[gregmosu]

Your absolutely right. Reading it again I see, although my name was mentioned it was the advice after it taht was at issue.

My apologies @BigFloyd for my needless post. Sounds like we are all on the same page.

Sorry!!! This is my fault. When I used @Gavin, I was just asking you. I'm really not sure where I got that advice. But my latest two batches have been fermenting in the low 60s.... so I should be ok.

 

[christyle]

I suggest doing a good chunk more reading on the boards here, looks like you've got some misinformation to iron out. I wouldn't be in any rush to start all grain yet, get your extract process down.

I know there's some discussions about front page articles right now, but read through those to get some good info on different topics. Theres a wealth of good information to read through, and if nobody has told you yet, get John Palmer's book: "How to Brew". Or read it here

 

[Gavin C]

Sorry!!! This is my fault. When I used @Gavin, I was just asking you. I'm really not sure where I got that advice. But my latest two batches have been fermenting in the low 60s.... so I should be ok.

No worries at all. The error was entirely mine.

I would second the excellent advice to read John Palmer's "How to brew". The process is really not complicated. It's just a matter of doing lots of little simple things correctly. Understanding the fundamentals makes that a lot easier.

 

[WildTim]

I as well have thought of moving from extract to all grain. Again for the cost savings. It seems that on average my LHBS sells all grain kits at about half the cost of the same beer in an extract kit. A pound of extract costs about $3 while the equivalent base malt costs about a buck.

My biggest worry right now is mash ph as I brew with distilled as my tep water even makes root beer taste funky.

 

[BigFloyd]

I as well have thought of moving from extract to all grain. Again for the cost savings. It seems that on average my LHBS sells all grain kits at about half the cost of the same beer in an extract kit. A pound of extract costs about $3 while the equivalent base malt costs about a buck.

My biggest worry right now is mash ph as I brew with distilled as my tep water even makes root beer taste funky.

Can you get spring water or RO water? Either are better than distilled for brewing.

I've always believed that your first brew priority (other than solid sanitization) ought to be yeast and fermentation, especially control of temps. Not as sexy as saying you brew AG, but more important to the finished product.