More questions on bottle carbonating

[Chalkyt]

I am ready to carb bottle three x two litre (about 1/2 gallon) "test batches" that have been sitting in secondary for a month. The plan is to use recycled 330ml bottles (about 3/4 pint) with crown caps

Batch 1 is a mix of juice from "leftover apples" Pomme de Neige, Pippins, Red Delicious, Granny Smith and Crab Apple. EC1118 yeast. It was 1.004 going into secondary and hasn't changed. Tastes quite good!

Batch 2 is the same juice with Nottingham yeast. It was 1.010 going into secondary and hasn't changed.

These two "test batches" are to see what difference the the yeasts make. Already it is obvious that the Notty is quite a bit darker than the EC1118.

Batch 3 is mostly Granny Smith with some Pomme de Neige and EC1118. It was also 1.004 and hasn't changed. A bit tart but should become a nice light cider.

I had planned to "sugar up" to 1.005 on bottling. The reason for this is that a carbonation test just using sugar and yeast in water gave the best carb result from 1.005

BUT, as you can see from the finished SG, this might not work. So, any suggestion re how much I "should sugar up" to get reasonable bottle carb?

In the past I have worked on 1 tsp of sugar per pint, but this was just a rough guide before having a hydrometer and sometimes resulted in very fizzy bottles.

I did notice in the Notty batch that the hydrometer seemed to stir up some bubbles which also formed on the glass and so might have overstated the finished SG.

I had planned also to stove top pasteurise but RPH Guy suggests that fully fermented cider doesn't need to be pasteurised. Any comments?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Use a beer priming calculator, like this one
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/
The concept is the same for cider as for beer - as long as the yeast have finished chewing through the apple sugar, you are adding the amount of sugar needed to achieve the carbonation you want. I aim for 2.5vols for cider, which is a fair bit lower than most cheap commercial stuff.
There is always some CO2 dissolved in the cider, which is accounted for in the calculator (it's fermentation temperature dependent).
You don't need to bottle pasteurise unless you want a sweeter cider, i.e. kill the yeast while there is still some sweetness left. I prefer to ferment dry and backsweeten with a little syrup if I want a sweeter cider.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Also, sugar and yeast in water is never a good way to test things - the yeast don't do much before they give up for lack of nutrients.

 

[Maylar]

I would be concerned about your numbers that fermentation has not finished. Both those yeasts should take cider to below 1.000. Bottling at 1.010 is an invitation to disaster.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the information. According to the calculator I will need between 9g and 12g of sugar for 2.0 - 2.5 volumes of CO2 in the likely temperature range that I have i.e.15C - 20C (59F-68F). This sort of lines up with (but is a bit less than) the "roughly two teaspoons" per litre that I had been working with. I am not sure how to take into account the amount of CO2 that might already be in the cider. Do I need to worry about this?

As far as the batches are concerned. There is still a little foam/bubbles forming on the surface in the neck of the flagons (our term for a 2 litre carboy). Shining a torch into the flagons shows that there are still small bubbles rising even though the liquid in the airlocks doesn't seem to move.

So, you are probably right... secondary fermentation is still happening. A friend who has a small boutique brewery (beer) says that they only leave it in secondary for a couple of weeks. That is why I was going to bottle now, and was a bit mystified by the somewhat high FG I was reading. Looks like the cider needs to be left longer.

Part of the problem might be we are right into winter now with morning temperatures around zero (32F). These batches were originally in our outside produce store which was down to 8C (46F) which seemed to be a bit cold so I brought them inside to an unheated cupboard which has been a fairly constant 15C (59F). Could the cold have sent the Nottingham and EC1118 "to sleep"? If so should I move them to something like 18C-20C (64F-68F)

 

[Maylar]

Fermentation will definitely slow down at cold temperatures, but that's not a bad thing. People claim that a slow ferment makes the best cider. At 50 F/ 10 C even an aggressive yeast like EC-1118 can take 4 months to ferment a 1.050 cider. Whether you allow that or speed it up by warming it is your choice.

 

[jmartie13]

I don't think I've ever bottled a cider higher than 1.000. I generally do a primary fermentation at whatever temperature I think the yeast will give me what I want, then move to the cooler basement for the secondary, probably about a month. Then bottle using a carb calculator like the one mentioned by Gnomebrewer to 3.0 volumes. Always gives me a nice dry clear sparkling cider.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the clue about the calculator. It has caused me to rethink the 4.5 litre (one gallon) batches that I bottled at the end of May. I ended up with 8.3 litres bottled in a variety of 500ml and 333ml grolsch type bottles.

I must have got the maths wrong as according to my notes, I added only about 5.5 tsp of sugar (22g) in total. Depending on the temperature involved, this seems to be only half of what the calculator says is needed to achieve over two volumes of CO2.

I have opened a bottle to check what is happening. It tastes great but only has the slightest spritzig to it... really not enough. The calculator suggests that the sugar I added, will only result in 1.6 volumes. It is interesting to see that the ratio of sugar to CO2 volume isn't linear, I guess because of the inherent CO2 already in the cider which seems to be about 0.9 volumes for fully fermented flat cider.

So the plan is to add another 22g of sugar in a simple concentrated syrup of 42ml sugar and water. This should bring the CO2 up to around 2.25 volumes. There seems to be enough air space in the bottles (various sizes from 500ml to 333ml grolsch type) to do this this with an eye dropper at 5ml (roughly a tsp of sugar in water) per 500ml bottle.

Any comments and feedback on this approach are more than welcome. I think I have got the maths right this time.

The more I look at all of this and get feedback from the forum, the more I realise that it is easy to make "cider" but you need to be a lot smarter and better informed to make "good cider".