More infections !!%"£&£^%"£&^%"£$&^

[ukbrewhaha]

Hi there,

Just moved my latest brew to secondary, had a quick taste and I THINK it has a hint of sour/infection. Following on from a previous thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/reoccuring-infection-418618/)
this is the latest in a long line of infections. None in three years, now 5/6 in a row! I was incredibly meticulous (more so than normal) in my sanitation and cleaning.

My post boil routine looks like the above (set up for picture purposes). The infections occur in the primary, and reveal themselves late on. I use an airlock, boiling water, starsan IO for sanitation.

From the picture you will see the potential infections points are:

- kettle tap
- tubing
- fermenter
- fermenter tap

Now my cleaning process for these things:

- kettle tap: heated up above 80oC during boil anyway, then rinsed with starsan before transfer
- tubing: flushed with boiling water then starsan before transfer
- fermenter: no scratches, relatively new, 60 min bleach solution soak + scrub for cleaning, starsan for sterilise.
- fermenter tap: same as above

The infection is a sour taste, and shows up looking like big flocculated chunks of yeast on the top of the beer, about 1-2cm across. Like I said, in this beer it's very very subtle, but has been a lot worse in past. Maybe this shows my extra care is taking effect? From my previous post, I pinned it on my loose lid fermentation, but the airlock is on now so it can't be that.

Basically I'm asking, is there anything I'm missing/should be doing? I'm literally at a loss as to what can be causing this. The only thing I can think is to chuck my tubing and get some fresh. Either that or my housemate is spitting in my beer haha.

Any help would be wildly appreciated! Feel free to ask anything I've missed.

Cheers

 

[aiptasia]

Just out of curiosity, why are you using a bottling bucket as a primary fermenter? The tap at the base of that bucket is another pathway for germs to infect your beer. It may be merely water tight, not air tight. I know that a lot of brewers use drum liners or propyline (sp?) bags as fermenter liners on small batch brews (50 gallons or less). You might consider doing the same. Adding a liner to your fermenting bucket(s), spraying it down with idophor or star san in a sprayer and trying that.

Second, if you're using LME, consider switching to DME. Some cans of LME that have been sitting for long periods take on a "twang" taste.

Third, if you're using tap water to top off your brews, boil it first. Better yet, use bottled water for top off.

Never leave the lid on during the boil, and make sure your beer does boil, not simmer.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Hmm never heard of the taps being an issue. It is actually a fermenter, just a small 15L one. I know plenty of people who use them and never have problems, and my old fermenter had a tap too, and that didn't have any issues.

I do all grain brews so ME can't be a problem.

I do sometimes top off with tap water, but have done before with no problem. This last brew however needed no topping off whatsoever

I do leave the lid off, but it definitely does boil (my boil loss is about 20% so I actually need to calm it down haha)

 

[ThickHead]

My best guess is that you have an issue with your "fermenter." This is the first thing that I would do differently if I were you. Get yourself a better bottle or a glass carboy for your next batch.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Hmm yeah to me it must be either the fermenter or the tubing. Going to replace the tubing for my next batch and see if that works.

Wouldn't have thought any germs/wild yeasts could survive a bleach soak and then starsan? I've heard germs can hide in scratches, and even under the plastic, but that seems unlikely to be considering how new the fermenter is?

My first infection came around from my old fermenter because of scratches, and it's carried over from there, so it must be residing somewhere.

Anything that I can do the absolutely blitz the hell out of my kit?

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks like something gets missed cleaning or sanitizing. Over time gunk and residue can build up somewhere and you won't notice until you're a few batches in. Process of elimination is the best course of action. You need to scrutinize the whole process chain, particularly everything the wort touches after the chill.

Those spigots in fermentors and bottling buckets can be a bad bug trap.
Many are 2 barrels that rotate within each other, so the nut part stays and the spigot part can be turned in any direction. The space between those barrels is impossible to clean without taking them apart. Soak in very hot water for a minute to soften the plastic, and pop the 2 barrels apart. Clean well with brushes, rinse, immerse in sanitizer and re-assemble wet.

Your hoses might need to be cleaned better than just flushing with water. For longer lines, where even long brushes can't go, I use a soft fabric wad tied on both ends with thick "fishing line" and pull them through a few times back and forth with a good cleaner, such as a PBW solution. An extra set of hands helps a lot. Then rinse and sanitize. If in doubt, repeat.

Valves are a trap too. I found a lot of gunk hiding inside regular ball valves. Also the threads are a bug trap. Brush all those areas well and flush out. The 3-part valves are easier to clean and more thoroughly.
You could boil valves, or put all those parts in a pressure cooker. Most modern valves have a teflon "seal" that is an integral part of the design. They cannot be baked in an oven, they'll warp.

The inside rims of lids are another infamous area, and everything under grommets, seals, etc.

Replacing parts of the equipment that could harbor the bugs is a good idea. Bugs can be tenacious, and the best is to eliminate or isolate the problem. I really hope you find the culprit, so they [edit] don't get a chance again.

One of the best pieces of sanitation equipment is Starsan in a spray bottle. I spray everything before it comes in contact with the wort or beer.

What is Starsan IO?

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Yeah I am suspicious of the tap, not because of air getting in like someone suggested above, but definitely because soaking in bleach and turning it on/off over and over might not be enough. Especially considering that my fermenter/tap has had an infection, it really needs to be cleaned well.

Is it true bugs and nasties can hide UNDER the plastic making them almost impossible to eradicate?

With my tubing, for the sake of £3 I'm just going to chuck it, but will keep in mind that cleaning method for my new stuff.

The sanitiser I use is this:
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/image0011.jpg

Iodine based, diluted in a spray bottle with neutral Ph Tesco water, diluted to 0.6ml.

I've read about people changing up sanitisers after infections. Would you recommend this?

Thanks for the replies.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ah, you mean "IO Star."

"StarSan" is a very different product than IO Star (Iodophor). Iodophor is brown, low-foaming and iodine based. StarSan is clear, high foaming and an acid anionic.

These are the 2 main sanitizing camps out there with their own philosophies and I simply swear by StarSan. Its foam is as effective as the solution. Spray bottle!

After cleaning and sanitizing everything thoroughly, use a spray bottle with Starsan solution (filled up from your main dunk bucket) to sanitize areas on the spot before touching them, such as spigots (inside and out), carboy necks and stoppers, countertops, you name it. I also have a very clean (white) wash cloth in my Starsan bucket to wipe areas with, such as carboy necks and shoulders.

The bugs hide where we or our sanitizer can't reach them. In dirt, cracks, scratches, tight spaces between parts, etc.

Not under the plastic, but in between the plastic barrels that make up the main housing of the spigot. This is aside from the little valve that you turn the flow on and of with, which also needs to be taken apart and scrubbed with a small brush and cleaner. Then there's the retaining nut, the rubber or silicone washer (seal), and the threads. It is often overlooked, but you must remove the spigot from the bucket (fermentor) to get to those areas. Some spigots are better designed and easier to clean.
When you're confident everything is clean, rinse and sanitize and re-assemble wet in your Starsan bucket (or a smaller pail on the side). You get the drift.

(Stainless) racking canes need to be cleaned on the inside too, like hoses. They are not that smooth inside.

Replacing tubing and spigots is a smallish outlay for peace of mind. But being tenacious about cleaning them will save you grief later.

Your blogspot link is not working...
.

 

[Wynne-R]

Replace everything plastic that touches the sweet wort. What’s it going to take, £20?

When I took a beer judging class, the instructor advised that if you ever brewed a sour to segregate that equipment and reserve it for use exclusively with sours.

It is very difficult if not impossible to sterilize plastic, and it doesn’t take much to infect wort. Why screw around?

Prevention is the best cure, but having been bit, I’d nuke it.

+1 to everything IslandLizard said, but I’d recommend starting fresh.

 

[ThickHead]

Anything that I can do the absolutely blitz the hell out of my kit?

Again, I would advise you to buy a 5 gallon better bottle or glass carboy and do not use the tubing (it's not a requirement to transfer your wort to the carboy). Invest in a racking cane and new tubing for racking your wort from the carboy to wherever it will eventually go (bottles or keg). This essentially eliminates your primary concerns listed and the cost would be similar to the cost of ingredients for a single 5 gallon batch of beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Looking at your pix, I bet you never took the spigot off that bucket.

I prefer glass over PET (Better Bottle) since it is much harder to scratch glass than plastic, but with the right care PET bottle could last you a long time. I'm the scrubber kinda guy (janitorial and chemistry background), so I stick with the dangers of glass.

Regarding your current brew...
If the infection effects show up later during the primary fermentation, it must be a small bug that gets a foothold on the yeast. In sour brewing, that's exactly what we are looking for. So your batch may not be ruined but instead has become an acquired and much sought-after taste. I'd let it ride and suggest reading something about sours (HBT is great). Perhaps you'll like it. Keep that "ruined equipment" on the side for sours only.

I would buy new hoses, fermentation bucket (or carboy) and stay away from spigots there unless you follow a strict cleaning regiment.
There is no need for secondary fermentation vessels or racking to secondaries unless you want to add some major amounts of adjuncts like fruit and let it sit for months. Even then, you can probably stick to a primary only.

If you bottle, you'll need a bottling bucket, and those have a spigot. Buy a new one and a new spigot. Clean and sanitize as outlined above. If using a bottling wand, it needs to be cleaned thoroughly, by taking apart and meticulously cleaned inside out. Or buy a new one.

Your racking cane (if you use one) is a toss up. If you're sure it is clean and sanitized properly, it may be fine. Otherwise, get a new one.

Before I forget, get a bottle of StarSan. Your beer is gonna love you for it. The bugs won't.
A single 5 Gal solution in deionized water kept in a closed bucket will last you months, as long as the pH stay below 3 (litmus test). A couple drops of phosphoric acid will rejuvenate it, if it rises above.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

So is IO Star regarded as not being as good? Or is it purely down to preference? I think I will go for StarSan as it can't hurt to have more steriliser. With IO Star you need correct water Ph for it to work properly, is there any treatment for Starsan? Or can you just use tap water?

I think I will start to chuck everything. Will be a shame to lose my fermenter as I've only used it 5-6 times but I guess that's a price worth paying.

If I were to switch to a glass carboy, how would my end of boil process go? I have a hop filter in the kettle, so would I scrap that and just go back to picking up the pot and pouring through a sieve/funnel into the carboy?

Changed my website name last week check it out!

I'm looking at:
http://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=363
http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/public/detailv1.asp?itemcode=GLA20067649

If I'm going to upgrade, I want to be clear of my new process - buy once buy right - so I know I'm not investing more money in 6 months time

 

[ThickHead]

So is IO Star regarded as not being as good? Or is it purely down to preference? I think I will go for StarSan as it can't hurt to have more steriliser. With IO Star you need correct water Ph for it to work properly, is there any treatment for Starsan? Or can you just use tap water?

Just use StarSan, diluted per instructions, in your tap water....full stop

Will be a shame to lose my fermenter as I've only used it 5-6 times but I guess that's a price worth paying.

Yes...you've only used it 5 or 6 times and the last 5 or 6 batches have been infected. Why on earth would it be a shame to see it go? Let it go.

If I were to switch to a glass carboy, how would my end of boil process go? I have a hop filter in the kettle, so would I scrap that and just go back to picking up the pot and pouring through a sieve/funnel into the carboy?

Nothing needs to change in the kettle. You are just putting your seasoned sweet wort (post boil) in a glass carboy instead of the bucket. Continue as per usual.

buy once buy right - so I know I'm not investing more money in 6 months time

LOL! Good luck with that.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I use plastic buckets with spigots and tubing for primary, secondary and bottling. Zero infections in roughly 100 batches. Knocks wood.

I've never disassembled the spigots for cleaning. I replaced the tubing once just for the heck of it.

Cleaning process is rinse with hot tap water. Soak with hot tap water and oxyclean for a day or two. Rinse. Starsan.

 

[Wynne-R]

It is best to use distilled or RO water for your Star San solution. Otherwise you’ll need to discard it when it gets cloudy.

The official answer is that Star San solutions should be clear and a pH below 3.5.

If you used Distilled water the solution would not turn cloudy. The product can react with hard water and turn cloudy. The Minerals in the water can react with the anionic portion of the star san and cause it to go bad. Yes, when this happens you should consider making a fresh solution. The cloudiness usually forms after a dwell time or when people try and store the solution for multiple weeks. If this is the case then, yes always start with a fresh solution.

Jon Herskovits
Five Star

 

[ThickHead]

It is best to use distilled or RO water for your Star San solution. Otherwise you’ll need to discard it when it gets cloudy.

Good point. I never keep StarSan solution for longer than each brew day so I don't run into the clouding issue.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

ThickHead you make a valid point about that fermenter. I'm just a stingy guy haha. I maybe should do a ceremonial burning.

In the UK we can't get hold of oxyclean very easily, I guess I can use a bleach solution? Requires lot of a rinsing but still does the trick. Any better alternatives that are similar to oxyclean that you guys know of?

Definitely going to invest in starsan and a glass carboy - as you say it's not a massive investment for what it is.

My fermenter tap doesn't disassemble which is a pain.

Carboys seem potentially tough to clean, any tips for that?

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Looking at:

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/store/chemicals/chemipro-oxi-1kg.html
http://www.brewuk.co.uk/store/chemicals/5starspbw1lb.html
http://www.brewuk.co.uk/store/chemicals/starsan16.html

The bottom one is the right starsan right?

 

[Wynne-R]

Ukbrewhaha, your Chemipro seems to be similar to our OxiClean. The active ingredient is sodium percarbonate, more properly called sodium perhydrate.

IO Star is an iodophor, it’s a good sanitizer. The downside is that it should be well drained or dried (it sublimates). It doesn’t take much to taint a batch. With Star San that’s not a problem.

Your BrewUK listing is indeed the same Star San we use.

Bob’s your uncle.

 

[Lost]

ThickHead you make a valid point about that fermenter. I'm just a stingy guy haha. I maybe should do a ceremonial burning.

In the UK we can't get hold of oxyclean very easily, I guess I can use a bleach solution? Requires lot of a rinsing but still does the trick. Any better alternatives that are similar to oxyclean that you guys know of?

Definitely going to invest in starsan and a glass carboy - as you say it's not a massive investment for what it is.

My fermenter tap doesn't disassemble which is a pain.

Carboys seem potentially tough to clean, any tips for that?

I would favor bleach for sanitizing over oxiclean or an "oxyclean-like" product. Oxyclean is just washing soda (sodium carbonate) and sodium percarbonate in a 60-40 ratio supposedly. Sodium percarbonate breaks down into hydrogen peroxide and more washing soda. I would think that you could get your hands on washing soda at the grocery store as a common laundry booster (though maybe you have a different name for it there). Note that "borax" (another common laundry booster) is not the same as washing soda. Cholorine free "color safe" bleach is hydrogen peroxide, also available in the laundry section of the grocery store. I would think you could come up with a good oxiclean analogue by combining these products in the right ratios (google and experimentation to figure that ratio out). You could also just buy some Pbw from the homebrew shop too - that's the gold standard for cleaning. It's oxyclean and a few other chemicals - sodium metasilicate primarily.

Though, again, if you want to sanitize I would think a very strong bleach solution would be best. I have brought back some very nasty molded and old brew buckets this way - by cleaning thoroughly first (removing lid gaskets and airlock grommet) and then bleaching the heck out of all parts. I don't personally believe that properly cleaned plastic can "harbor" infections as do many here.. but if I'd lost several batches to a recurrent infection I might think differently.

Keep in mind, too, that you can't effectively sanitize until all surfaces are clean or free from organic matter. Like others, I suspect the valve is the culprit. If you aren't able to clean it effectively (probably with disassembly which you say is not possible) then all the sanitizing in the world is for not.

Glass carboys are great but do come with risks for catastrophic breaks and serious injury. I've never had that happen but it does worry me and I try not to move full carboys more than strictly necessary for that reason. Cleaning is not bad at all with a good rinse, a soak with pbw or oxyclean, and if necessary a brushing with a carboy brush (looks like a big "L") to clean any gunk stuck to the top. Buckets aren't that much better from a cleaning perspective because you have to clean the lid and the seal and grommet.

Here's a link to a carboy brush so you can see what I'm talking about
http://morebeer.com/products/carboy-brush.html?gclid=COK67JmpsLgCFUgV7AodGkgA8Q

edit: Also, I second the starsan recommendation. It is a brewers best friend. I think bleach is probably a better sanitizer though for the purpose of killing your persistent infection.. but for "no rinse" sanitizing starsan can't be beat.

 

[rvklein]

I don't like the look of that braided hose. I'd suggest you use silicone instead

 

[kombat]

Carboys seem potentially tough to clean, any tips for that?

1 scoop Oxyclean Free or PBW, fill to brim with warm/hot water.

Let sit for 24 hours.

Rinse thoroughly.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't like the look of that braided hose. I'd suggest you use silicone instead

The OP is only using it for draining chilled wort, not hot. Silicone is preferred but in a pinch, vinyl is fine for that purpose.

Something about carboys. Make sure you don't pour extremely [edit] hot wort or water in a glass carboy, or a plastic one (PET) for that matter. The glass may crack (thermal stress) [edit] and the plastic may develop crazing (hairline fractures) or splits across the molding seams.

Glass carboys are indeed dangerous when they break or shatter, it is just the sheer volume of glass and the weight and size of the shards that add the extra risk. Many of us here use plastic buckets, alas without hard to clean spigots. Cheap and cheerful, although visually no show stopper. Old or scratched buckets can be used for sanitation, grain storage, washing bottles, mopping floors, etc. Just mark them as such to prevent "Kitchen Floor Suds ESBs."

My all purpose cleaner is, and has always been, sodium carbonate (aka washing soda, laundry booster, etc.). For hoses, plate chiller, pump and other difficult to clean equipment I use PBW or my home-made version of it, 70% scent-free Oxyclean and 30% sodium metasilicate. At or above 140° it works like nothing else.

 

[m3n00b]

1 scoop Oxyclean Free or PBW, fill to brim with warm/hot water.

Let sit for 24 hours.

Rinse thoroughly.

I do 4 scoops oxy free, hot water and 1 hour. Works fine on glass.

 

[vinnythering]

Beating a dead horse here, but my vote for likely suspect is the fermenter tap. I would get a new fermenter and lose the spigot altogether. Especially if it really doesn't disassemble.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Yeah I'm still torn between a glass carboy and getting a new bucket without a tap. I don't use the tap on my primary any more (I rack to a bottling bucket), so that would be a cheaper (yay) alternative, and would mean my brewing is pretty similar to how it always is.

As IslandLizard said above, I'm going to keep the old fermenter, and use it as a cleaning bucket.

Plan of action:

-New fermenter with no tap (glass carboy or bucket)
-Replace tubing
-Get StarSan
-Get PBW
-Pray/Try not to cry if another infection comes along

 

[IslandLizard]

Good strategy for the next brew. Clean that racking cane or siphon well too.

How is your infected beer now? Maybe it tastes good as a sour?

Another thing to watch out for. Grain is covered in lactobacillus so don't mill grain where you're brewing or fermenting.
The bucket lids are a trap too. Particularly the inside rim and that airlock grommet/hole.

 

[Wynne-R]

Uh-oh, uk, you said bottling bucket. If you have to use one be meticulous about the spigot, per earlier posts. Disassemble it immediately after use, clean and sanitize. Store it dry and disassembled. Carry a spare, those things can break.

I found that aside from harboring infections, bottling buckets introduce air from splashing. I use a siphon and a bottling wand, and I throw out the first half bottle and the last half bottle. Actually I add it to the starter, but my point is don’t bottle the part where the siphon was glugging.

Best of luck, ukbrewhaha. Do write back and tell us how fabulous your future beer is.

 

[ukbrewhaha]

Yeah I syphon carefully and have a bottling friend. I'll be sure to blitz the hell out of it before any further use. At least if it tastes good going into the bottle I know I've sorted out the primary.

Yeah I tasted my last brew and bottled a few anyway to see how it turns out. Was a very slight tangy sour, more noticeable to smell, but wont necessarily be too nasty to taste. Will get more sour over time though I guess. Was just annoyed cos even if it is drinkable, it shrouds out the tons of hops I put in.

Will report back on this thread in 2-3 weeks, as always thanks for the great help everyone.

 

[m_stodd]

What I would do:
On the next brew, heat up your water to like 200F, then fill the fermenter with it. If it's food grade plastic, it shouldn't have a problem with the heat (stickers might come off though). Then drain it through the bottling spigot back into your kettle and continue as normal. Everything should be sterilized at that point.

Star San will sanitize things that it comes in contact with, but heat will kill everything (if your equipment can take it).

Don't do this with better bottles or glass. Melting or shattering may result.