More Brew in a Bag (BIAB) Success

[FlyGuy]

FWIW: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximum-brew-bag-effeciency-137804/

Also: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/index24.html#post1708318

Basically, it's not very hard to get 100% conversion. If you do, the upper 70's% is easy to reach. 78% has been my average recently as efficiency goes down as water/grain ratio goes down.

Sorry man, I don't get your point. All I see in these threads is some general discussion about how high an efficiency everyone can reach and a lot of talk about pulleys.

 

[bakins]

Sorry man, I don't get your point. All I see in these threads is some general discussion about how high an efficiency everyone can reach and a lot of talk about pulleys.

Just that it's higher than the 65% that is commonly quoted. The math says its possible and lots of folks on here regularly get high 70's% with no sparge.

 

[FlyGuy]

FlyGuy here's a 10 Gallong batch thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/10-gallon-brew-bag-10-gal-biab-100313/

Thanks Joe. 10 gal (even 5 gal batches) sound like they could get a bit awkward without a pulley system. I am getting more and more curious to try this method. I won't be able to do it in my normal brew areas (kitchen or deck outside) without rigging up something, though.

 

[FlyGuy]

Just that it's higher than the 65% that is commonly quoted. The math says its possible and lots of folks on here regularly get high 70's% with no sparge.

I don't think you read the whole thread then. I wasn't disputing it.

 

[bakins]

I don't think you read the whole thread then. I wasn't disputing it.

You are correct, I skimmed it. I've read it now. Please ignore me now

But if you (in the general sense, not FlyGuy in particular) do care to do so, you can use Kai's calculations and see the math for yourself. That's how I convinced myself that I wasn't crazy when I was seeing 75% efficiency with no-sparge and people kept throwing around Palmer's "no-sparge tops out at 65%." Of course, Palmer wasn't even talking about the type of no-sparge we are talking about anyway.

 

[bigjoe]

Not sure of your physical situation FlyGuy, but a normal gravity 5 gallon batch grain bag isn;t really all that awkward IMO. 10 gallons might be a pain in the butt. For 5 gallon batches of my 1.056 APA the grain isn;t much more than the size of a basketball in the bag I pull it out and set it in a bucket and allow to drain. I usually fill the bucket with sanotizer later. I know others use a steam basket for the turkey dryer also sitting above the kettle somehow. Its not that bad really.

I think I mentioned already I'm going to be doing my mash in an Igloo cube from here on out with full volume - no sparge mash. That will make it way easier when I do 10 gallons for sure.

Haven;t done 10 gallons, but for 5 gallons I'd say a pulley is over-engineered.

 

[bigjoe]

Right Palmer was using normal batch mash rates. He would aluter and top off. I think the the thin mash has a lot to do with the efficiency though. I've done similar process but only added 1 gallon after mashing because kettle was too small for full volume. I still got great efficeincy.

 

[FlyGuy]

Right Palmer was using normal batch mash rates. He would aluter and top off. I think the the thin mash has a lot to do with the efficiency though. I've done similar process but only added 1 gallon after mashing because kettle was too small for full volume. I still got great efficeincy.

I had a look at Palmer's book, and I don't see where he adds top-up water in his calculations. I believe he is talking about adding all the water to mash tun, so really his description of a no-sparge method isn't that different from the BIAB method (what differs is the system of lautering).

Perhaps his figures are based on people using fly sparge equipment where there tends to be a quart or two of wort left behind in the mash tun. But that shouldn't account for a 10 or 20% difference in efficiency. I guess I am still struggling to understand why his figures (which he implies are based on real numbers) are so much lower than what people are reporting here. Lautering in a mash tun vs. removing the spent grain in a suspended bag don't seem like big differences.

Maybe Palmer's 65% number is just flawed? Or maybe it is just that everyone is crushing really fine to get high efficiencies? Both?

 

[Hermit]

After listening to a few of his and Jamil's podcasts I've come to the conclusion that you really have to take some of the stuff both of them say with a grain of salt. Lots of good information from them to be sure, but I've heard them turn deaf ears to the experts they had on when they didn't want to hear what they said. Asbestos at the ready.

 

[bigjoe]

I'll agree about the podcasts, but I think palmer is more consistent and if he deviates from previous views he held, he usually mentions it. I think a good example is the podcast the did with Bamforth a while back when they talked about foam forming protiens being sepnt once the form foam once. This hasn't been my experience. I shake the hell out of sample I carb all the time. Half a liter or more of foam or more. Once it settles back in its fine. So maybe once beer is carb'd the foam protiens come into play. But I've also had flat beer in 2 liter bottles that I've carb'd up again with out problem.

FlyGuy I thought I was referencing a BYO article Palmer did, but I just checked that and saw he didn't mention 65% efficiency there. So maybe it was HBD I saw the 65% reference. I know I've saw something from Fix somewhere mention lower extract efficiency, and it was on a forum archive from 10-15 years ago .

 

[bigjoe]

Palmer's BYO article mentions top off water. Can't recall what his book says.
http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/9-all-grain-brewing/1407-skip-the-sparge

I thought I had a good reference for the 65%, but having trouble finding it. Here is an HBD site that says 50%. I know thats way out of line.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

I'd swear I saw Fix reference on a forum archive somewhere. There really isn't much out there on it in print or the internet really.

I found this but no mention of 65% either.
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/dboard/dbnewsl/t9703f.htm

 

[bakins]

Palmer's BYO article mentions top off water. Can't recall what his book says.

pg 185 in 2nd edition of How to Brew. He does mention 65% and using top-off water, which is not the same as the no-sparge we are doing.

 

[LandofOZ]

ok so now we call it "BIABSPIAB" BREW IN A BAG SPARGE IN A BAG another acronim to add to the list
ok so i have been using a modified brew in bag. i brew 5 gallon batches. i came across a 6.5 gallon aluminium fryer pot and a 5 gallon gott coller (round) at sales for $5 each and got a 5 gallon paint strainer bag, the bag fits into the cooler and am able to pull it over the threads. preheat the the cooler and then add 3 gallons mash water to the grains in the bag in the cooler at about 162 stir and i get 150 mash temp droping 2 degrees in 90 minute mash. because the bag is streched over the coller threads the top holds the bag in place and am able to shake the cooler to stir the grains without removing the lid. while masing i heat my 3.5 gallons of sparge water to 180 degrees in the boil pot, when the mash is done i pull the bag and sit it in the a callander over the cooler and squeze the bag and then the bag goes into the sparge water in the pot for 15 minutes. 180 gets me 170 sparge temp. I have my stove down to where to know where to set the dial to maintain 170. after the 15 minute dip sparge i once again put the bag in a coolander over the pot. turn the heat up. squeeze the bag then remove to go in the garden. I add the mash from the cooler. usually do a 60 minute boil. i am usually several ponts over the origianl gravity called out in the recipee and have gotten final gravities 1.010 or lower for recipees that call for brewhouse efficiencies of 75 percent. this is working well for me and have done 7 to 12 pounds of grain, i think 12 would be about max for my 5 gallon cooler.
__________________

 

[mrcmatt]

That sounds very interesting. Do most people use a 10 gal pot? I'm also working on getting a 10 gallon cooler too, that's way up on the list of essentials I have to get once I get back home from Iraq.

Also, where do you purchase your "voille" stuff... I've never heard of this.

Hope you get back soon, to relax with a home brew...

I use a 10 gallon pot for BIAB with good success. I have found I can use up to 15 or so pounds of grain in 10 gallon pot and still get pretty good efficiency. More grain than that makes the mash so thick the efficiency goes down.

Adding a batch sparge to BIAB lets you get to the real high gravity stuff. I recently brewed a belgian tripel with 22 or so pounds of grain in the 10 gallon pot. The pot was very full. very. but I ended up with 4 gallons of 1.100 in the pot when I pulled the bag. I then batch sparged the bag and made a belgian pale (6 gallons at 1.060 or so) and got a few extra gallons to put in the tripel to make a 6 gallon boil. you can read about it on the link in my signature.

 

[mrcmatt]

That's great to see all the people having such great success! It's great to demonstrate that we don't have to choose just one method to get fantastic results (like some old school brewers would have you believe).

For all you BIAB guys, is anyone doing larger than a 5 gal batch or high gravity (>1.07) brews? If so, what's your method for draining your grist bag? Pulley? Giant collander?

With gravity that high, I have found I have to modify my BIAB method. I have a 10 gallon kettle - this limits the amount of water + grain, so if I want a bunch of grain I can't use as much water. So then the mash is thick (I'm starting to think thin mash is a key to efficient BIAB...) and I don't collect much liquor to boil. A quick batch sparge is my remedy. Drop the bag in unmodified cooler, add 170 F water, stir, stir, stir, drain and you are ready to boil. You can read more about my recent adventures with high gravity parti-gyle on the link in my signature...

 

[mrcmatt]

One last comment for now.

Regarding physical process of removing bag of wet grain from the kettle,

for example, say you have 14 pounds of grain for a five gallon batch. obviously the bag will weigh 14 pounds plus the weight of the water retained. I have seen .2 pounds of water is absorbed by 1 pound of grain during mash as a general rule of thumb.

So 14 x 1.2 = about 17 pounds - but that is once it is pretty well drained,

when you first pull it up it is heavier, I'd guess 21 to 23 pounds or so when you first pull it up and it is dripping fast. That drops pretty quickly to close to the 17 figure above.

If you can lift a full carboy or brew bucket you can do it unless you have shoulder, back or some physical thing limiting lifting from waist to shoulder height.

But, if you are boiling on the stove, the bag will start out much higher and that would mean you are lift the weight from shoulder height to above your head, that is a harder lift...

 

[goin2brew]

I BIAB all the time.
I use the 1.33qt x #grain ratio @154 in 1 pot x60 mins.
I have a second pot (with the remainder of my boil volume) that I put the grain bag in after mashing. I leave this at 170 deg x10 mins, remove the grains and then combine both volumes and boil as normal.

Saves plenty of time for me.

 

[paraordnance]

I BIAB as well for last 4 batches and have no plans to moving ahead with MLT design AG. Its saves me a LOT of room for equipment, I only have one closet to hide all my brewing equipment. I have 40 qt pot and mesh bag, thats it. My first time BIAB I had 68% efficency but its going up couple points at a time since I started to nail my process down.

 

[BARBQ]

I just did a BIAB last night, but this time I sparged with the HBT advice after getting low OG before. If I could figure out how to measure my effeciecny I could say if it is a good process or not. I read for an hour last night about this, but it is still a mystery.

I used this recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f70/red-rye-ale-25929/

1. I mashed at 152F 3.5 Gal water with all grain in a paint bucket strainer bag. (wow these are awesome)

2. Then I heated up two seperate pots (smaller) with water at 170F.

3. Then after mashing for 60 min I pulled the bag out and put in a SS colander on top of the mash pot and let drain. Then smashed down to get every drop out.

4. Then I split the bag of grain loose into both smaller pots at 170F (no bag anymore its still in the SS colander over Mash pot)

5. I stired them in the sparge pots for 15 min. Then I poured one into the SS colander still over the mash pot and let drain. Smashed too. Repeat on second sparge pot.

6. At this time I had all the 1st run and sparge wort in one place and did a boil for about 70 min maybe 5.5 gal or a little more. (Ended up with right at 5 gal in fermenter)

It seemed pretty thick, but after two ice baths and still not cool enough to pitch I put the top on and stored at room temp overnight from 11pm. With the yeast in a luke warm cup (i hope ok). Then I measured the OG see pic below in the morning 6am, then pitched. It was probably 75-78F on measuring OG.

I think I was 1.040 with temp correction at 1.042 OG - 1.012 FG (Estimated) * 131 = 3.93 ABV? I think I am right. Learnin more and more each day on HBT just not getting any sleep or work done.

 

[Mysticmead]

2 BIAB under my belt and many more are in the planning stages. My wife has been baking dog treats and bread using the spent grains and actually told me that I need to brew more beer so she can have more grain to bake with!!

 

[johnnyc]

I've used BIAB for almost 2 years now and have dialed in my system pretty good. The mesh is sometimes called mosquito netting too.

The most grain I can get in and out of my keggle is ~24lbs. Takes 2 of us to lift it out. On 10 gallon batches I drain the majority of the wort into a second pot just to lower the water level so the bag drains some in the keggle itself. I lift the bag out and hang it over a 5 gallon bucket to continue dripping while I dump the drained wort back into the keggle and start boiling. I dump that bucket of wort back into the keggle once it slows to a drip, usually most of the way through the boil. I've got a sightglass though so I don't have to worry about getting my volumes just right, I can just top off after the mash when I start the boil. I average 70% eff.

 

[bigjoe]

I'm not trying to be a jerk. However, when someone qualifies a statement like this they generally are trying to be a jerk... I truly am not.

The intent of BIAB was a simplified process that used the full volume of mash water, or at least as much of it as physically possible in your vessel, during the entire mash without sparging. I think if your dunking or rinsing the grains while in a bag your doing more of a modified batch sparge.

One of the best features of this technique is that you only need one vessel to mash and boil. The result is time saved in clean up and not sparging.

Full Volume No Sparge brewing (BIAB) is a technique that works without sparging. If your having efficiency problems on normally gravity brews I'd try to figure out why the efficiency is bad as opposed to a band-aid of rinsing the grain.

There are a few posts here on HBT that cover efficiency problems with No Sparge brewing.

I don't have a problem with rinsing the grains. If that works for you great, but I don't think its really No Sparge brewing or BIAB.

 

[BARBQ]

Full Volume No Sparge brewing (BIAB) is a technique that works without sparging. If your having efficiency problems on normally gravity brews I'd try to figure out why the efficiency is bad as opposed to a band-aid of rinsing the grain.

I did my first two batches without sparging, but I was way under my OG, so I sparged on my third. It was still under what it should have been, but it was alot better. I would love to know how to do it without sparging. I have been reading, but havent found anything to help yet.

I will keep on keeping on, since I got more determination than sense.

 

[gingerdawg]

I don't have a problem with rinsing the grains. If that works for you great, but I don't think its really No Sparge brewing or BIAB.

I brew in a bag in an 7.5 gallon turkey fryer, and it is not big enough to do a 5 gallon no sparge BIAB. Just can't get the mash thin enough. I do have the old 20 qt pot from the extract brewing days, and I heat sparge water in it, on the stove, while the mash is in the Turkey Fryer, with the bag in it.
It is brewing in a bag. It is not "no sparge" brewing in a bag. It works great. and I don't have to have a keggel or a huge pot to make it work.

 

[gunner65]

I did my first two batches without sparging, but I was way under my OG, so I sparged on my third. It was still under what it should have been, but it was alot better. I would love to know how to do it without sparging. I have been reading, but havent found anything to help yet.

I will keep on keeping on, since I got more determination than sense.

From what I have learned low eff with BIAB are poor grain crush.

 

[Mysticmead]

I did my first two batches without sparging, but I was way under my OG, so I sparged on my third. It was still under what it should have been, but it was alot better. I would love to know how to do it without sparging. I have been reading, but havent found anything to help yet.

I will keep on keeping on, since I got more determination than sense.

if you get your grains crushed at the LHBS, have them double crush it. you aren't going to be worried about a stuck sparge since you aren't using a MLT. then make sure you have ALL the water needed in the brew pot. account for boil off, grain absorption and trub loss. a fine crush and thin mash will get you into the mid 70's (I get 75%). heating to 170 at mash out helps too as it thins the liquor allowing more sugars to drain

 

[jjones17]

I'm not trying to be a jerk. However, when someone qualifies a statement like this they generally are trying to be a jerk... I truly am not.

The intent of BIAB was a simplified process that used the full volume of mash water, or at least as much of it as physically possible in your vessel, during the entire mash without sparging. I think if your dunking or rinsing the grains while in a bag your doing more of a modified batch sparge.

One of the best features of this technique is that you only need one vessel to mash and boil. The result is time saved in clean up and not sparging.

Full Volume No Sparge brewing (BIAB) is a technique that works without sparging. If your having efficiency problems on normally gravity brews I'd try to figure out why the efficiency is bad as opposed to a band-aid of rinsing the grain.

There are a few posts here on HBT that cover efficiency problems with No Sparge brewing.

I don't have a problem with rinsing the grains. If that works for you great, but I don't think its really No Sparge brewing or BIAB.

BIAB stands for Brew In A Bag from what I have read. No Sparge brewing would be just that... brewing without a sparge.

I have done BIAB without a sparge, and BIAB with a sparge.

I get the preface "I am not trying to be a Jerk here... BUT....", so what are you trying to be? The guy who suddenly proves his worth by stating the obviously inconsequential? No offense dude, but lots of other "Meaning of BIAB as God Intended It" people have said exactly what you are saying now. The fact of the matter is, that people who like to BIAB often sparge - and nobody seems to care about that fact but you. While you are not "Trying" to be a jerk, what else are you?

Brew on mang

 

[ShakerD]

I agree with Jjones17

Why are we splitting hairs here?

If you want to do BIAB do it! If you don't then don't!

BTW I got 80% today doing a BIAB and my process is different that the OP.

But who cares it works great for me.

 

[bigjoe]

I'm a jerk.

 

[bigjoe]

BARBQ, like a couple of others mentioned you can go with a very fine crush. If you have a way of checking your pH I'd do that to make sure your in the ball park, and check thermomter. You might try mashing longer. Stir the mash a lot, because it doesn't matter if you disturb the grain bed. I'm having an efficiency problem myself right now. I've done over 40 batches without a problem, and recently my efficiency has been suffering.

I always do a 10 minute mashout.

This one doesn't help efficiency. If you want a fairly clear wort and have a valve on your kettle you can recirculated a liter or 2 at a time during the mash out. Its kind of like a vorlauf. I use a pump now but I would recirculate a liter at a time for 5 minutes during the mash and at mash out when I didn't.

Check out the links in my sig. I think a couple of them discuss BIAB efficiency.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. However, when someone qualifies a statement like this they generally are trying to be a jerk... I truly am not.
...
I don't have a problem with rinsing the grains. If that works for you great, but I don't think its really No Sparge brewing or BIAB.