Miter Saw for Keezer Build

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Chinooski

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I have been planning a keezer build for quite a while now. As of now i just have a temperature controlled freezer with kegs, CO2, and picnic tap handles. That will all change soon.

My question is regarding a miter saw for cuts. I am planning on using 2x6 pine with butt-ends for the inside of the collar, and 1x8 red oak with miter cuts on the outside. Not knowing anyone I can borrow a miter saw from, what are my best options?

Renting from Home Depot looks like it's ~$30 for 4 hours. That is about 1/4th the price to buy one of the lower range ones. I was originally planning on getting a 10inch Ryobi, but realized it might not be big enough to cut the 1x8.

Next i found a Kobalt 7-1/4-in 9-Amp Sliding Compound Laser Miter Saw which looks like it could do the job.

I have no use for a miter saw outside this project for now, but it could definitely come in use a few years down the road. Also I am not looking at dropping much money on it.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
 
Don't rent a miter saw unless you're building a fence. The miter saw will be poorly maintained, very likely out of square, and have a **** blade on it.

Go cheap if you're looking for just this one project. CraigsList usually has entry-level Craftsman saws in the $50 range. Harbor Freight sells entry-level miter saws new for about the same price. I've built 12' long floor-to-ceiling built-in bookcases using these saws before, along with a free table saw and a $50 radial arm saw. They'll suffice for your project as long as you check square on a few test cuts before diving in.

Skip the Kobalt saw. 7-1/4" blades are special-purpose on a miter saw, and most blades you'll find in a brick and mortar store of that size will be designed for circular saws, not miter saws. You want a 10" blade on that miter saw unless you install crown molding for a living, or can afford to up to a 12" blade. You also don't need a slider or dual bevel.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend buying a miter saw. Lowe's and Home Depot both cut to length, usually free for 1 cut per board. Grab a nice piece of stock off the shelf (eyeball it for warp, twist, cup, loose knots, etc) and tell them your measurements. Unless you want an amazing hardwood-top keezer, you don't need to cut it yourself -- and if you want that, you'll need much more than just a miter saw.

Hold off on the good miter saw purchase until you have space and time for a nice one. They don't hold value well while collecting dust.

Good luck!
 
I gather you don't know anyone you could borrow one from?
Have you checked out what's available used?

They're handy saws to have around, but if you don't plan on doing much diy stuff it's probably not worth the expense of buying new. A cheaper option would be a circular saw and a straight edge. Circular saws are also a lot more versatile for any future projects that might come up.
 
OmegaFunk said:
A cheaper option would be a circular saw and a straight edge. Circular saws are also a lot more versatile for any future projects that might come up.
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I disagree. A quality circular saw is almost always a worm drive variant, and they are very rare to find under $100 new. Don't buy a used worm drive saw -- they're the most heavily abused tool on the construction site, by far.
 
thadius856 said:
Don't rent a miter saw unless you're building a fence. The miter saw will be poorly maintained, very likely out of square, and have a **** blade on it.

Go cheap if you're looking for just this one project. CraigsList usually has entry-level Craftsman saws in the $50 range. Harbor Freight sells entry-level miter saws new for about the same price. I've built 12' long floor-to-ceiling built-in bookcases using these saws before, along with a free table saw and a $50 radial arm saw. They'll suffice for your project as long as you check square on a few test cuts before diving in.

Skip the Kobalt saw. 7-1/4" blades are special-purpose on a miter saw, and most blades you'll find in a brick and mortar store of that size will be designed for circular saws, not miter saws. You want a 10" blade on that miter saw unless you install crown molding for a living, or can afford to up to a 12" blade. You also don't need a slider or dual bevel.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend buying a miter saw. Lowe's and Home Depot both cut to length, usually free for 1 cut per board. Grab a nice piece of stock off the shelf (eyeball it for warp, twist, cup, loose knots, etc) and tell them your measurements. Unless you want an amazing hardwood-top keezer, you don't need to cut it yourself -- and if you want that, you'll need much more than just a miter saw.

Hold off on the good miter saw purchase until you have space and time for a nice one. They don't hold value well while collecting dust.

Good luck!
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Do you know if it's possible to request miter ends from home depot/lowes? For the inside of the collar butt-ends are fine, but I would really like to have the outside have miter ends.
 
If I decide to go with a 10", will it be able to cut the 1x8 oak in one cut? I have heard varying results while searching. If it can't, is that a deal breaker or is it just as easy as lining up and making another cut from the opposite side?
 
thadius856 said:
I disagree. A quality circular saw is almost always a worm drive variant, and they are very rare to find under $100 new. Don't buy a used worm drive saw -- they're the most heavily abused tool on the construction site, by far.
Click to expand...

I gather you're in the west? Westerners seem to prefer wormdrives and easterners seem to prefer sidewinders.

It doesn't sound like he needs anything fancy, something like a basic skil would probably suit his needs pretty well.

I agree with the cut shop suggestion though. That is probably the best option. Just double check your measurements before and after the cuts. (I've had bad experiences with cutshops messing up my cuts; and it's best to catch any mistakes before you leave the store)
 
Cutting capacity varies on model. Most 10" saws max out around 5-6" wide. That doesn't mean you cant cut bigger. Flip the board over to double the reach.

Miter ends why? In this application, they wont add strength unless you have band clamps to set the glue square perfectly. Miter ends are usually done to increase surface area for gluing, which isn't an issue here. They only add when mitering in the opposite plane (imagine a picture frame). If you really want extra strength, almost every other joint (rabbet, dado, finger, dovetail, spline, biscuit, etc) will best stronger in this plane. Seen any mitered drawer boxes? There's a reason.

To miter a 1x10 on end, youll need a very high capacity saw ($500 range) or to compound the cu, which I dont recommend until youre comfortable with your saw.

Worst case, call a cabinet shop. They could make somefancy strong joints cheaper than you can.
 
thadius856 said:
Cutting capacity varies on model. Most 10" saws max out around 5-6" wide. That doesn't mean you cant cut bigger. Flip the board over to double the reach.

Miter ends why? In this application, they wont add strength unless you have band clamps to set the glue square perfectly. Miter ends are usually done to increase surface area for gluing, which isn't an issue here. They only add when mitering in the opposite plane (imagine a picture frame). If you really want extra strength, almost every other joint (rabbet, dado, finger, dovetail, spline, biscuit, etc) will best stronger in this plane. Seen any mitered drawer boxes? There's a reason.

To miter a 1x10 on end, youll need a very high capacity saw ($500 range) or to compound the cu, which I dont recommend until youre comfortable with your saw.

Worst case, call a cabinet shop. They could make somefancy strong joints cheaper than you can.
Click to expand...


Looking to do the miter ends for purely aesthetic reasons. I personally think they would look much better than a butt end. What do you think of the Ryobi 10" miter at Home Depot? Seems like a pretty entry-level saw that has gotten some good reviews. If it's possible to get through the 1x8 by flipping it over I think this may be the best route.
 
The ryobi miter saw is a good saw, I have the same one myself. I don't think you will be able to make one cut on a 8" board but it should be close. Yes you can flip the board over but you will need to be spot on when making the 45 degree angle trying to line up with the first cut. I started building my collar yesterday and really the main saw I was using was a hand circular saw with a straight edge and clamps. I would even consider finding a table saw and setting the
 
nextgenxx said:
The ryobi miter saw is a good saw, I have the same one myself. I don't think you will be able to make one cut on a 8" board but it should be close. Yes you can flip the board over but you will need to be spot on when making the 45 degree angle trying to line up with the first cut. I started building my collar yesterday and really the main saw I was using was a hand circular saw with a straight edge and clamps. I would even consider finding a table saw and setting the
Click to expand...

what happened there? you ok? hope the saw wasn't the culprit for the incomplete post.
 
Why not use a table saw? Especially on wider lumber like that, a mitre box won't make as perfect of a cut unless you have a compound mitre box. Which you are now getting into a much higher price range. I say use a table saw instead. I bet it wouldn't take more than asking 3 people to find someone willing to let you use theirs. Where are you located?
 
What is the point of worm drive circular saws? I saw those at the store and didn't understand. Are they better at something?
 
If I needed this type of thing done AND I make some real good brew I would be looking to barter my talent for thiers
 
griz419 said:
Why not use a table saw? Especially on wider lumber like that, a mitre box won't make as perfect of a cut unless you have a compound mitre box. Which you are now getting into a much higher price range. I say use a table saw instead. I bet it wouldn't take more than asking 3 people to find someone willing to let you use theirs. Where are you located?
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Located in South East Michigan. If purchasing, I would be looking in to whatever will do the job well and also be useful in the future.

There is a 10" Ryobi table saw for the same price as the miter saw. If that is what I end up using, what would need to be done to make a 45 degree cut?
 
I'm in Toledo. How far is that? You can use my table saw, circ saw, or mitre box :)
 
Chinooski said:
Looking to do the miter ends for purely aesthetic reasons. I personally think they would look much better than a butt end. What do you think of the Ryobi 10" miter at Home Depot? Seems like a pretty entry-level saw that has gotten some good reviews. If it's possible to get through the 1x8 by flipping it over I think this may be the best route.
Click to expand...

I understand. Aesthetics are important.

If you're painting it, just butt the edge, fill the end grain with wood putty or joint compound, sand and paint over it. You'll never know there was a joint at all if you do it right.

For bare wood, it's trickier. I'd still go with a butt joint, but recommend putting L-shape corner moulding over it if you don't want to see the butt. It can be stained and is about $1.50 per foot, so it's very affordable.

The problem with using these cheap saws to make this cut are two-fold: limited material cut height and width. Entry-level saws will have a max height capacity of 4-6". A 1x8 will not fit standing upright. Moulding contractors end up buying high-capacity saws for this so they can cut baseboard standing upright. You're looking at a good-sized 12" saw for that, minimum. Many even carry a 15" saw just for tall base moulding because the alternative (below) is a pain in the butt.

You can get around that by cutting on the flat and compounding the saw sideways. If you the saw does not cut the full width of the board in one pass, which in this case it probably won't, then you'll not only have to cut once, flip and turn the board backwards, but then compound again -- or compound with a slider, which starts getting less accurate. It's very unlikely you'll get a clean, even cut this way because it allows for so much human error. Imperfect boards will magnify the difference. If the saw is at all off from square or the compound angle gauge, the difference will be magnified double and reflected in a poor cut.

In short, if you want to miter a 1x10 on end like that in one pass for an accurate cut, you'll need to use a table saw set to 45 degrees out with a sled, or a circular saw set to 45 degrees with a clamp-on straight-edge and a ton of luck, or a rather large miter saw. None of these are cheap.

Dovetails are very handsome. They can be made with patience, a hand saw, and a dovetail template. Personally, I butted then filled and painted over with chalkboard paint. I didn't even glue or nail the collar together; mine's held together (sturdily, I might add) by hurricane ties and hurricane screws. It was faster, cheaper, and almost as strong as the traditional methods.





Again, if you absolutely must have mitered ends, I'd really recommend hiring this one out to a cabinet shop. They have access to far bigger, better, and more accurate tools than you could hope to buy. They buy lumber grades that are miles above what the big box stores sell and they get a good discount that you won't be able to match.
 
Chinooski said:
Located in South East Michigan. If purchasing, I would be looking in to whatever will do the job well and also be useful in the future.

There is a 10" Ryobi table saw for the same price as the miter saw. If that is what I end up using, what would need to be done to make a 45 degree cut?
Click to expand...

Nothing. You just crank the handle that bevels the blade to 45. Make sure it comes with the sled- a sliding push bar that keeps the wood at 90 degrees. It's the only way to go, I do this for a living and my table saw is indespensible. Just be safe ( and sober) find a table that is the same height as the saw so your board doesn't droop down and make the cut awry.
 
liquiditynerd said:
Nothing. You just crank the handle that bevels the blade to 45. Make sure it comes with the sled- a sliding push bar that keeps the wood at 90 degrees. It's the only way to go, I do this for a living and my table saw is indespensible. Just be safe ( and sober) find a table that is the same height as the saw so your board doesn't droop down and make the cut awry.
Click to expand...

If you go table saw, this is dead on.

It probably won't come with a sled. A good precision sled is $60-100 by itself. It'll probably come with a miter gauge. That's probably going to be good enough to do what you want to do.
 
BetterSense said:
What is the point of worm drive circular saws? I saw those at the store and didn't understand. Are they better at something?
Click to expand...

Miles apart.



More powerful, more rigid, designed for construction site use by framers and sheeters. They're meant to hang from a professional tool belt and get beat to hell. A good one will last a lifetime in a home setting. When I have material that's big and tough, I'll always rough cut it down to size with my worm drive saw before putting it on the table saw. The motor is just that much more powerful. Note, I don't have a $5000 cabinetmakers table saw with 8' of extension tables -- those would cut anything you can throw at them, but it's not in my budget.

One thing to note is worm drives have the blade on the left, where you can sight it right down the line as a right-handed individual. Cheaper versions have the blade on the right, where you have to lean outwards to see the path or trust the aiming notch on the saw's foot.
 
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image-102140662.jpg

Butt joint (not mine) ash



image-3587780769.jpg

Mitre joint ( my apprenticeship ten hrs ago) oak and inlay


I would have to agree with Thadius. If youre not doing this a lot it can be frustrating and make your project take that much longer, unless you are trying learn something new. If thats the case I can post up a video for you. No prob. There is nothing wrong with butt joints and they often take more abuse.
 
griz419 said:
I'm in Toledo. How far is that? You can use my table saw, circ saw, or mitre box :)
Click to expand...

About 1 - 1 1/2 hours. I appreciate the offer.

I'll plan on checking out some table saws tomorrow. If I find one that is within my price range that will work for my purpose, then I'll get it. Otherwise you might be hearing back from me ;)
 
hey man, my office is in Novi and I have both a mitre and table saw if you want to save the money. Id be happy to loan them to a HBT guy for a project... as long as I get a pint of whatever is on tap after the build is done
 
An option, if budget is an issue is to butt join them as well, but add finish trim to the outside edges, hiding the joints.

Then again, a saw will pay itself back hundreds of times over the years, and your skills will only improve. Post pictures please of your results.
 
A word of caution.

I know lots of guys that have multiple miter saws with varying features and prices for multiple purposes. I don't know anybody that has multiple table saws.

Miter saws grow with you and you collect them. Table saws you sell when you upgrade.

I've tried some of these sub-$500 table saws and been very disappointed, especially by the Skil and ANY blue Ryobi tool (I hear the green pro line is better). It takes a lot of steel to make a good table saw. Maybe I'm just spoiled because I learned woodworking on Grizzly and Steel City cabinet saws.

Please do follow up with pictures.
 
[

I've tried some of these sub-$500 table saws and been very disappointed, especially by the Skil and ANY blue Ryobi tool (I hear the green pro line is better). It takes a lot of steel to make a good table saw.

Also, a lot of copper. Make sure you are comparing amps on the motor. The lower price range is going to be direct shaft meaning the load of resistance is connected to the drive shaft. The smaller amp motors have no guts and that is why they tank, that and I see a lot of people go cheap on the blade ( they get pricy) and it just tears them up.
 
Hmmm. Amps as a rating for motor strength? I don't know about that. Even the cheapest Skil 10" table saw is rated at 15-amps. At 120V, that's 2.4 hp. Compare it to a 3 hp cabinet saw and it's like the difference between a 60's Beetle and a modern Modena.

Horsepower is no better as a rating. I own a "6 hp" shop vac that runs on 120V. The rub is that, as above, a 120V circuit at 15 amps (standard household outlet rating) is only 2.4 hp, as above. Even if it were 20A and had the oh-so-rare-20A-plug, it would still only be 3.2 hp. I don't own a single appliance with that plug, even though I have several circuits wired for it. Even my 240V 30A clothes dryer only pulls 4.8 hp, and that's what the bigger saws run on (until they hit commercial 3-phase). So, how is 6 hp on my shop vac possible? "Stall horsepower", which is a made-up marketing term.

More info: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?19777-How-can-6-HP-motor-be-120V

But you're right, in a way. Bigger copper windings and more expensive brushless designs allow for higher efficiency, which translates to more power applied to the blade. Imperfect blade-to-fence alignment can absolutely kill performance, as can dull blades. It's just a shame that we don't have a standard, regulated way as consumers to see a real power rating at-a-glance.
 
A good quality blade will be more forgiving of the newb.
Take some time to watch a youtube to learn the proper technique to
use whichever tool u end up with.A common mistake is not letting the saw
attain operating speed. Safety is also a major consideration.All thesesaws
will eat humans as soon as they make the smallest mistake or fai ltopay attention
 
thadius856 said:
Even the cheapest Skil 10" table saw is rated at 15-amps. At 120V, that's 2.4 hp. Compare it to a 3 hp cabinet saw and it's like the difference between a 60's Beetle and a modern Modena.
Click to expand...

This is true, BUT, for the regular home user a sub $500 table saw is more than enough. I have a Ridgid 4512. It is heavy as hell, cast iron top, and has a stable base. At first I was worried about the 13 amp motor but when I asked a friend of a friend to give me a demo of his saw of that model, he showed me how it cut through a bit of Ebony like it was softwood. Effortless and clean cut.

What he did tell me was to use a higher end blade. I said "ya ya ya" and blew it off. When I tried the blade that came with the saw when I got one and it cut nothing like the one I saw demo'd. Then I got a proper carbide blade (Freud Diablo) and it is as good as a saw that I have seen.

Yes a bad ass commercial cabinet saw would make my saw look like a toy but it is made for commercial use (and priced as such). It is made to be running non-stop cutting woods of all type 8 hours a day without break. I use my saw a lot and it works perfectly. I can produce furniture with my saw as well as I could with any saw on earth...I just wouldn't want to burn out my saw mass producing furniture/cabinets, which is what a commercial cabinet saw is used for.

The note about technique above is key. Watch as many videos or relatives or neighbors as you can. And get the best blade you can afford. Keep in mind the blade is really the saw that does the business of the cut. The table, mitre, and circular/worm drive "saws" are really just there to spin the blade and create a surface for you to line up the blade to cut accurately (complete over simplification but the over all point is correct).

If you are looking to use the tool for a specific task and don't really have too much of a use for it after you are done, there is nothing wrong with borrowing/renting one (you can probably get a demo from whoever you are borrowing it from. I have bought a cheap power tool before (a mitre saw, in fact) and I used it until it wore out so I got value for it as a semi-disposable inexpensive tool.

Just some things to consider.

And use CAUTION. Power saws are witches and they WILL take your fingers if you let them. My friend's wife's dad is missing thumbs from two separate occasions....THUMBS! (I probably would have really favored my remaining thumb after the first accident, but somehow he didn't learn his lesson and is now essentially no longer a primate).
 
Fair enough. Just a note that Freud makes amazing blades, but their Diablo line is generally regarded as not very good. I have a Freud Diablo 90T Ultra Fine Finish blade hanging in the tool shed that I paid $65 for to cut some furniture grade oak plywood, and it performed terribly. I bought six or eight $25 discontinued Onsrud blades (a few negative hook miters, 60t, two different 40t, a 20t, and a 8-tooth dado set) on eBay and they really blew it away. I've tried to give away the Diablo a couple times, and nobody seems to want it.

Agreed that most home users won't be able to push a cheap saw to their limits, with the exception of entry level jobsite/portable table saws. They just don't have the table or fence to accommodate full sheets. Most users (myself included) can't freehand full sheets solo on a saw like the without binding the blade up.
 
TerraNova said:
You can NEVER have enough clamps. Invest and have them always.
Click to expand...

I'll second this one. I've been doing work on my keezer and everything was taking about 2-3 times as long because I didn't have enough of or the proper clamps. Broke down and went to Harbor Freight yesterday and they happened to have (most) all of their clamps on sale and I bought 12 clamps of different styles and sizes.
 
That has not been my experience with Freud vs their Diablo line. I have a Diablo 60t ATB finish blade and a Freud 30 TCG blade (I use each for specialized cuts) and I have had no issues with either. Both have preformed excellent. I suspect Diablo is their economy line, but I would take their economy line over many other companies high end stuff based on my experience.

I have an 8" Oshlun 42 tooth Dado set and it KICKS @$$.

And yeah, even though my table saw is big and heavy enough to accommodate full sheets, it is still a bear to do by myself. I use my circular saw to break down sheet material and then fine cut it on the table saw. While I wish there was a single saw that does everything, the reality is that to the variety of cuts needed for intermediate level and above woodworking you need multiple saws. Table, circular, band, jig, reciprocating, and several hand saws for specific tasks. There is just no way around it. I thought for the longest time that I could forgo a miter saw...then I need to do mitered cuts on metal. NO WAY was I about to cut metal on my table saw. So the miter saw got added to my list.
 

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