Missed Efficiency in BIAB (longer post)

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mildeng

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Hi all, this might be a bit of a longer post but I am having serious issues with brewing efficiency and as a result, really missing my OG for many recent BIAB brews. The resultant beers have been "ok" or "drinkable" but definitely nothing I would write home about (sadly!).

My system is a very simple 10G kettle with a standard sized brew bag and 5G batches. I am typically using a no-sparge or minimal-sparge approach, having my grain double milled from the LHBS. Simple copper coil wort chiller to reduce to pitch temp, typically pitch either dry yeast (with a starter) or liquid Wyeast/Escarpment Labs with no starter. Generally not brewing higher gravity stuff so the cell count in one pouch is sufficient for what I'm making. I ferment in a temp controlled kegerator and do a mix of bottling or kegging. Have had no issues with carbonation or infection of any kind - have a feeling my main issue is either (i) efficiency during the mash period; or (ii) ineffective fermentation.

Brewed a Zombie Dust Citra IPA clone today
Beer Recipe Cloud by BeerSmith - Homebrew Beer Recipes

Process as follows:
- Measure out 2x milled grain and bring 6.5g of water up to temp
- Dump grains into the brewbag-lined kettle in 1/4 sized increments with frequent stirs
- Should have taken a pic, but one item I'm worried about is that the way the bag lines the kettle, the crest of the grains is not fully submerged in the water and as such, I will frequently stir during the 60m mash to ensure good mixture. (Should all grains be submerged at all times)? I would have to press down maybe an inch or two with my steel spoon to reach the actual wort - maybe overthinking, but I am unsure if my brewbag might be too small? Should it fit into the kettle as a perfect "sleeve" over the surface area of the inside of the pot?
- Mash for 60m at ~152deg. I use a temp probe which is confirmed to be accurate (used for competition bbq'ing and not an issue). Checked OG which came in at a massive 1.038 miss vs. target 1.069. Used DME (~1.5lbs dissolved in cold water) to close the gap.
- Pull the bag and rest on top of a wire rack positioned on top of the brew kettle.
- Bring wort to boil and hop per recipe. Today I sparged with about 1.5G of 150deg R.O. water and squeezed the brew bag heavily.
- Cool wort, transfer to fermenter - I am much closer to OG with the DME addition so pitch.

Generally, my recent beers have the flavours and carb level I am looking for (from yeast, adjuncts, etc) but generally have a "watered down" or very tame description. I took an efficiency reading based on the recipe used and calculated it at something in the neighbourhood of 40%; absolutely driving me crazy as I cannot pinpoint the error of my ways. Of note, my hydrometer is accurate and tests 1.00 in R.O. water - the beer flavour tends to match my conclusions relative to measuring gravity.

Understand this is very tough to accurately describe w/o photos. Does anyone have a good video recommendation from beginning-to-end BIAG, either from youtube or elsewhere? Very greatly appreciate any feedback - truly love the hobby but feeling in a funk here.
 
The most likely culprit is the grain crush. Most shops mill with a wider gap for 3-vessel brewing, whereas BIAB is better with a finer gap. Do you have any pictures of the milled grains?

As for some other questions, my brew bag is bigger than my kettle. It comfortably rests on the bottom of the kettle, with some room to spare. I've never had an issue where the grains were only partially submerged.

You mention 152 degrees as mash temperature. Do you leave the heat on, or was that just the starting temperature? If you were stirring the grains a lot and the heat wasn't on, you may have lost a lot of temperature over the course of the hour. I typically put on the lid and put a moving blanket over the kettle, with the heat off. I lose about 4-5 degrees over the course of an hour, with one stir about 15 minutes into the mash.
 
Your bag is too small for starters. With a proper sized bag, your kettle should just be able to fit into the bag, with about 4" excess height on the bag so you can fold over the top of the kettle. All the grain should be under water when you are done doughing in. Malt needs lots of water to gelatinize, which needs to happen before it can convert. Wilser makes reasonably priced, custom fit brew bags that are very high quality.

In order to determine where your efficiency problems originate, you need to determine both your conversion efficiency, and your lauter efficiency. Conversion efficiency measures how much of the available starch in the grain actually gets converted to sugar, and lauter efficiency measures how much of the sugar created in the mash actually makes it into the boil kettle. Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency.

Conversion efficiency can be measured using the method here. 100% conversion efficiency is obtainable, and you should target 95% or better. Normally, too coarse a crush is responsible for low conversion efficiency, but that is for cases where all of the grain is underwater in the mash. So, you need to fix your bag problem first. Extending the mash time can at least partially compensate for coarse crush.

To calculate lauter efficiency, you first use your brewing software to calculate your mash efficiency, and then calculate lauter efficiency as:
Lauter Efficiency = Mash Efficiency / Conversion Efficiency​
Lauter efficiency is always less than 100% because the grain mass will always retain some of the wort created, and thus some of the sugar created. You can improve lauter efficiency by sparging (diluting the retained wort) or reducing the grain absorption (by draining longer, or squeezing.) It is possible to calculate the maximum theoretical lauter efficiency for no-sparge and batch sparge processes. The chart below shows maximum lauter efficiency for two different grain absorption rates and from 0 to 3 batch sparge steps, as a function of the pre-boil volume divided by the grain bill weight. The more grain you have for a given pre-boil volume, the lower your lauter efficiency will be.

Efficiency vs Grain to Pre-Boil Ratio for Various Sparge Counts.png


In order to get accurate calculations for mash efficiency, you need accurate measurements of the following:
  • Grain weight
  • Strike Volume
  • Pre-boil volume
  • Pre-boil SG
  • Post-boil volume
  • Post-boil SG (OG)
Brew on :mug:
 
Your bag is too small for starters. With a proper sized bag, your kettle should just be able to fit into the bag, with about 4" excess height on the bag so you can fold over the top of the kettle. All the grain should be under water when you are done doughing in. Malt needs lots of water to gelatinize, which needs to happen before it can convert. Wilser makes reasonably priced, custom fit brew bags that are very high quality.

In order to determine where your efficiency problems originate, you need to determine both your conversion efficiency, and your lauter efficiency. Conversion efficiency measures how much of the available starch in the grain actually gets converted to sugar, and lauter efficiency measures how much of the sugar created in the mash actually makes it into the boil kettle. Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency.

Conversion efficiency can be measured using the method here. 100% conversion efficiency is obtainable, and you should target 95% or better. Normally, too coarse a crush is responsible for low conversion efficiency, but that is for cases where all of the grain is underwater in the mash. So, you need to fix your bag problem first. Extending the mash time can at least partially compensate for coarse crush.

To calculate lauter efficiency, you first use your brewing software to calculate your mash efficiency, and then calculate lauter efficiency as:
Lauter Efficiency = Mash Efficiency / Conversion Efficiency​
Lauter efficiency is always less than 100% because the grain mass will always retain some of the wort created, and thus some of the sugar created. You can improve lauter efficiency by sparging (diluting the retained wort) or reducing the grain absorption (by draining longer, or squeezing.) It is possible to calculate the maximum theoretical lauter efficiency for no-sparge and batch sparge processes. The chart below shows maximum lauter efficiency for two different grain absorption rates and from 0 to 3 batch sparge steps, as a function of the pre-boil volume divided by the grain bill weight. The more grain you have for a given pre-boil volume, the lower your lauter efficiency will be.

View attachment 687653

In order to get accurate calculations for mash efficiency, you need accurate measurements of the following:
  • Grain weight
  • Strike Volume
  • Pre-boil volume
  • Pre-boil SG
  • Post-boil volume
  • Post-boil SG (OG)
Brew on :mug:
This is very informative, thanks. I have some homework to do (the good kind!)
 
Doug's post says it all. I would, however, add one more thing. Depending on the grain bill, you should be able to do a full volume mash with a 10G kettle for most beers under 5-6.5% abv. I have not had good results doing a pour over sparge with my bag, but I'd imagine that, if necessary, a dunk sparge would be more efficient.

I brewed a 6.3% IPA a few weeks ago with my 10G Brewbuilt kettle, full volume, no sparge and had room to spare.

The priceless brew in a bag calculator is very useful for determining if you can do a full volume mash or not. If you put in the measurements of your kettle, it will tell you how full it will be with the grains and water in the mash.

It's pretty full-featured, so spend a little time getting familiar with it. It's a very useful tool for BIAB and worth the effort to learn to use it.
 
I am interested in one day trying this recipe, so I went thru a recipe builder and all. I am still a novice for a lot of this, but noticed it to be considered a "high gravity" beer so I checked around on yeast since I see a lot of references to folks making starters for "big beers." Per Brewer's Friend, it indicates that one package of yeast is insufficient for this batch. It indicates you need either 4 - 11g pkgs or 1+ Liter starter (assuming a stir plate is used). I wonder if this is part of the issue?
 
The yeast has no effect on mash efficiency. It's most likely you need a larger bag. The grain should be completely submerged.
 
It seems that having the bag submerged is a big deal. After that, look at the crush.

One of my favorite beers. I have brewed this recipe many times. This last time I hit 1.064 OG. So close. I have it in the fermenter now. I pitched 2 packs of S-04, fwiw.

The previous time, when tasting, I thought “I finally nailed it”. Then I bought a six pack and tried them side by side. Close, but definitely different. It made me question what I remembered, and whether they have changed ZD. One thing is that it is more commonly available around here than it use to be. I use to stop by the brewery occasionally on the way to Chicago, and they would be out. Now, I can usually find it locally.
 
That is good to know. That is the same yeast I was planning to use. Is the Brewer's Friend yeast calculator maybe too conservative?

I am not familiar with the Brewer’s Friend calculator, and so cannot comment as to its accuracy. I have used this yeast before, using 1 pack, and it has done ok. What I have been doing lately is to develop a good yeast cake on one batch, and then pitch onto that for the next. So, I went ahead and used two.

With 2, it mostly finished in 36 hours. I brewed on Sunday, and Tuesday morning it was done. Started at 1.064, and it was down to 1.012 already. This is the batch I was planning on to transfer when it got close, and use my new Spunding valve to ferment under pressure in the keg, to have it self carbonate. But too late. I decided to go ahead and dry hop it, which I was going to skip.
 
There is a happy ending here - with the DME I added at the end of the boil to compensate for low efficiency, the beer is now kegged and 100% my best home brew to date. Appreciate all the feedback, very happy I posted the question!
 
I am not familiar with the Brewer’s Friend calculator, and so cannot comment as to its accuracy. I have used this yeast before, using 1 pack, and it has done ok. What I have been doing lately is to develop a good yeast cake on one batch, and then pitch onto that for the next. So, I went ahead and used two.

With 2, it mostly finished in 36 hours. I brewed on Sunday, and Tuesday morning it was done. Started at 1.064, and it was down to 1.012 already. This is the batch I was planning on to transfer when it got close, and use my new Spunding valve to ferment under pressure in the keg, to have it self carbonate. But too late. I decided to go ahead and dry hop it, which I was going to skip.

Curious how this turned out for you? I am planning to make a new batch and am leaning towards this one. Dry hopping would be a new element for me as I've yet to try it but want to. I am still trying to determine why Brewer's Friend indicates 4 dry yeast packs are needed, yet you have successfully done it with 1 or 2. I prefer results over theory for sure.
 
It turned out good. I've finished the keg already. Lol. I put a SS weight in a muslin bag with 2 oz of citra hop pellets. Just opened the top and dropped it in. Left it for 4-5 days? I would do it again.

BTW. I think one package of yeast would have worked fine. 2 was plenty.
 
It turned out good. I've finished the keg already. Lol. I put a SS weight in a muslin bag with 2 oz of citra hop pellets. Just opened the top and dropped it in. Left it for 4-5 days? I would do it again.

BTW. I think one package of yeast would have worked fine. 2 was plenty.

Did you dry hop in the fermenter or keg? My current plan is in the fermenter to avoid too strong of a hop flavor, though I've seen posts of folks doing the latter with acceptable results too.

Oh, and did you use a dry yeast as-is with no starter? I've yet to do a starter, so just checking.
 
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