Ministry and beer

[tonyc318]

I started brewing because I got tired of conversations shutting down the second some one finds out I'm a preacher. I was looking for a hobby that would help me connect with people that don't go to my church. I love the relationships I have built in the last year because of home brewing. People are very aware that I'm a preacher and a Christian, but the relationship builds because of beer. As a result, I've had plenty of opportunities to talk about what I believe about Jesus and church life. I haven't started an official "beer brewing" ministry through my church. I just brew for fun, connect with others that share that passion, and live my life as a person that loves Jesus.

 

[zmanzorro]

So do you also feel that it's appropriate to integrate sexual activities with worship? Because to me, service to God is in itself a joyous and sacred thing and need not be mingled with fleshly pleasures such as drinking alcohol. In fact is is mentioned in the bible “Do not drink wine or intoxicating liquor, you and your sons with you, when YOU come into the tent of meeting". A bit of a rant... Apologies

I believe that having sex (in the right context with your wife) is a form of worship. God created sex to be pleasurable and for a man to connect with his wife. To enjoy it is to praise God. So yes, I do feel it is appropriate to integrate sexual activities with worship in the right context.

 

[cfrazier77]

So do you also feel that it's appropriate to integrate sexual activities with worship? Because to me, service to God is in itself a joyous and sacred thing and need not be mingled with fleshly pleasures such as drinking alcohol. In fact is is mentioned in the bible “Do not drink wine or intoxicating liquor, you and your sons with you, when YOU come into the tent of meeting". A bit of a rant... Apologies

In the Old Testament the Lord also instituted drink offerings as part of the worship at the Tabernacle and then the Temple. I 100% agree with you on sexual activities being not proper during the corporate worship service. But, I believe the discussion is, or should be, about is something allowed rather if it must or should be involved. As a pastor, my church uses wine for communion. I do not have a problem with churches that decide to use grape juice, they need to follow their conscience. I would not be in agreement with drinking pints of beer during the worship service though. Worship gets thrown around as a word a lot. It is used two different ways. 1, our daily 24 hour response to the Lord for creating and saving us is our worship, i.e. we obey Him out of gratitude. 2, corporate worship is the gathering of God's people to worship him as He proscribes in His Word, i.e. the reading and explanation of the Word, prayer, praise...

How I drink, not being a drunkard, is part of my 24/7 worship of Him. I obey Him. I have no problem with sitting down with someone and talking about the things of faith and God over a pint or 2. I don't know if having scheduled church activities at a bar is a good thing. I don't see the point. I am considering doing a learn to homebrew day with our men's ministry as they would like that.

On the whole weaker brother thing. This gets abused a lot. Paul in Romans was saying two things. 1, if a weaker brother has a stumbling block the mature brother should not engage in his freedom in Christ in front of his brother. It does not mean that the weaker brother can control the mature brother's behavior all of the time. 2, the weaker brother is to grow up spiritually.

There are other factors that get lumped into stumbling blocks that are in a different category. A recovered alcoholic does not have a stumbling block with alcohol, he has a prior problem and any brother or sister Christian should love him enough to not drink if front of him out of love. A stumbling block to Paul was someone who still thought something was wrong even though it was not. An example, my other hobby is shooting. If a member of my church was a parent that lost a child in a school shooting I would not were one of my tshirts with guns on them around that person out of love for that person. I do not want to cause them any more pain that they have already experienced.

Some Christians try to be a "professional weaker brother" to control others behaviors which is not the point of what Paul speaking on.

On all of this, when in doubt, pray about it. Why do you want to do it? If it is mixing ministry and beer, is it because you like it or is it to reach a specific group of people and bring glory to God?

 

[RainyDay]

Well stated cfrazier. I think it ultimately comes down to your own conscience. If its a big deal to you, and its causing you to lose sleep over it or if it creates a barrier between you and God, then its not right for you. The alcohol or no alcohol debate has been going on for a looooong time, and its not likely to be solved. I have no issue with it, and I always grab a couple pints after church with friends after church, and wine is always consumed at bible study. I said it before, but I genuinely believe that God gave man alcohol as a gift.

In regards to the wine being the only source of stable water, lets not forget that Jesus turned water into wine at a party that was already hopping (not only that, but the host said it was the good wine. Who wouldnt do anything for wine made by Jesus???); ie it was about enjoying the company and the celebration, not about hydration.

Anyway, if you have issue with it, then dont do it and give thanks to God; if its no issue, than have a pint and give thanks to God

 

[bottlebomber]

cfrazier, I agree with you on many points and appreciate the time you spent on your post. Regarding drink offerings, I can find no reference that these drink offerings were imbibed, but rather they were poured out over the alter, in the same way that grain offerings were burned and animals were sacrificed. A grain or drink offering would typically be something that a less wealthy Jew would produce, since they wouldn't have the assets for an animal is my understanding. There is no connection that I can see between the drink offerings and the consumption of alcohol, other than the fact that wine was something of significant value in biblical times and thus was appropriate for sacrifice.

 

[tektonjp]

The main point of most sacrificial systems of the old world was a fellowship meal with the god, that is, the worshiper partook of some of what had been offered to the god after the sacrifice proper. This is part of what Paul was discussing when he was speaking of eating meat which had been offered to idols. The Jews were no different in their temple sacrifice worship. There were burnt offerings and "wave" offerings, the latter were consumed by the offerer afterwards.

 

[beersk]

Screw this, I'm gonna go listen to Ministry and drink a beer! Jesus built my hotrod!

 

[m1k3]

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks.

1 Timothy 3:1–7 and Titus 1:5–9 list the qualifications for a Pastor.

interesting link m1k3, but I'm not sure that advocating against drinking is going to work here, unless the link is more against mixing drink and ministry (like advice against drinking and doing things that require concentration and motor control).

ACbrewer, I included the link http://www.gty.org/blog/b110809 because of the discussion of using brewing as some form of evangelistic outreach.

I wasn't advocating against drinking specifically. But I would not encourage a brother in Christ to start brewing. I know it has at times been an idol in my own heart. Maybe I should give it up. (but that would be another thread)

 

[ladodger34]

This has been an interesting thread, especially for a non-believer type such as my self.

I grew up in a fairly non-religious family. I guess it would be safe to say that my parents were spiritual, but we didn't attend church. My dad's views of religion were passed on to me (and probably my siblings as well), but I probably took it to another level. I think he has always believed, but has had a healthy skepticism about organized religion. But I digress..

In my neck of the woods (inland Southern CA), the vast majority of the churches I came into contact with in the 90s (my teenage years) were all evangelical in style. One of the bigger churches in the area was a Calvary Chapel. Anyhow, I always had the sense that drinking wasn't a good thing.

To carry that further, my brother was a sales rep for a while for large local distributor (their main account was Miller before it was MC and they did a ton of imports like Guinness, Corona, etc). He was having a hard time reconciling his religious life (goes to same church as my parents) with his professional life at the time. I understand it, because drinking in most of the more modern protestant churches just seems to be one of those things that happens but no one talks about it.

Right about this time, I met and eventually married a Catholic girl. We had the whole mass wedding, our kids our baptized, my oldest does Sunday school already, etc. Imagine my surprise when I went to the first lenten fish fry with her (in the parish hall) when we were dating. The Men's Club was selling beer! And then a couple of months later, I helped her run a booth at the church's "Summer Fest" and they had a beer truck in the parking lot. It blew my mind. The churches I had contact with in my youth would have never had that stuff.

I'm not Catholic and I probably won't ever be. I do think if I ever joined the Men's Club and converted, I'm sure the dudes in the Men's Club would probably enjoy drinking my brew. In fact, I'm sure they would pester me to bring some if it was ever the case.

 

[luke_d]

Just found my new favorite thread. As a worship leader, I've always wanted to keep my brewing under wraps, save for a few friends from church who I brew with. And to be honest, I've never felt guilty or sorry for brewing. I'm a two or three pint then go to bed kinda guy, but I indulge every so often, and feel no remorse for it, as I feel it pleases God when I am happy in his creation.

 

[cfrazier77]

stamandster,
I went and looked up in the Scriptures, and you are correct. I was confusing parts of the peace offering with the guilt and sin offerings. Thank you for pointing that out. Even pastors make mistakes.

As for priests being able to drink, the prohibitions mentions the inner sanctuary, which would not cover the outer courts. I am going to look more into it though. I think you were thinking of a different passage regarding being off duty. Others of them were appointed over the furniture and over all the holy utensils, also over the fine flour, the wine, the oil, the incense, and the spices.
(1 Chronicles 9:29 ESV)

Please let me know which one you were thinking of, I would like to add it to the study.
Thanks again for putting me, and everything else, to the test of Scripture!

 

[Pastorken]

Three Methodist pastors are sight-seeing in a strange town. After a while they start to get hungry and thirsty but the only place open is a bar. After some debate they decide to enter it and sit down. The bartender comes over and asks, "What'll it be?" The three pastors just look at each other nervously. The bartender repeats, "Come on folks, what do you wnat to drink?" Finally one of the pastors speaks up and says, "You'll have to excuse us, but we're Methodists and we don't drink alcohol...in front of each other."

I'm a Methodist pastor myself but I know these debates have raged with people of all faiths and denominations for centuries. Personally, I'm always wary of the "It's in the bible, so it's ok!" arguement. In the Bible slavery and stoning people were ok too, but times have changed. King David drank wine, but he also had 300 wives and 600 concubines (and now we're debating whether two men should be able to be married!)
As a spiritual leader I am constantly aware that my words and actions are being watched by many people so I want to emulate my Lord more than anything. Jesus drank wine and ate with sinners, but he also said "Go and sin no more." He died for us "while we were still sinners" but he also warned about being hypocrites.
In short, I like to brew and have a few drinks from time to time but I am also aware that there are those who cannot, and it would be wrong for me to tempt them or look down on them for that. I had a fellow pastor ask, "Why can't we just have church in a bar every week?" to which I replied that the recovering addicts and ex-cons in my church would not feel comfortable in that environment. There has to be balance.
I try to remember that God wants us to live life to the fullest, but self control and kindness are also two of the fruits of the Spirit. (Gal. 5:22-23)
Peace!

 

[Bierliebhaber]

I appreciate your perspective, but the vast majority of the conversation here is not in reference to "it's mentioned in the Bible so it's ok." Rather, it is something very much expected to be enjoyed. It's a given. There are of course warnings and restrictions, as with other things. And certainly your point of caring for others and their struggles is a fundamental one. But again that is not the main discussion of this thread, though the reminder does not hurt.

It seems that there is a rather localized perspective, both historically and geographically, about the consumption of alcohol. I appreciate this thread for its balance on the subject, because in large part the American-christian perspective has been largely naive and unbiblical. My hope is that we can present ourselves in a way that does not elevate beer as a centerpiece of our lives, but that we can enjoy beer in a responsible and God-glorifying manner.

There are several overindulgences that the Bible warns against, alcohol being but one. However, The bible also presents alcohol beverages as a viable element of healthy spiritual fellowship. It has already been mentioned a couple times that the Bible even instructs that worship in the form of the feast of first fruits involves the consumption of wine and/or strong drink. Those who live near to Jerusalem bring their own food and wine to feast. Those who must travel far sell their first fruits and use the money in Jerusalem to by what ever they desire (emphasis made on their taste of preference) in meat and alcoholic beverage, and they are to feast and rejoice fearing the LORD their provider. (Deut. 14:22-27) Surely, when Jesus said, "do this, as often as you drink, in remembrance of me," he did not mean in the solitary introspective manner it is commonly done today. It is not a sip but a drink drunk in the absence of the most important individual of the Body. In fact our fundamental hope is the anticipation of the day when we will once again join our LORD at his table for a drink. (Matt. 26:29)

My point is not that everyone must or should drink, but that those who do so responsibly and purposefully should not feel the need to tiptoe around it. Those who condemn it altogether in the name of piety, however, should be ashamed and convicted by Scripture. As someone has said, they make an outcast of the One who saved them.

 

[Pastorken]

I respectfully beg to differ.
First, this thread was started by a fellow brewer who was hearing the call to ministry and was simply asking how one can explain our passion, not to those who agree with them, but from a Christian perspective and to all the "grandmas" we come across.
Second, the majority of responses I read on this thread (including yours) have used scripture to justify the drinking of alcohol whether in moderation or celebration.
The history of Christians being "anti-alcohol" rose out of the rampant destruction that cheap, hard liquor had overwhelmingly in poor and minority communities in the 18th and 19th centuries. And it was Christian groups who spoke out against it as a social justice issue.
I love to homebrew because I am fascinated by the history, science and fun of it, and I love the taste of a well made beer. There is no need to use scripture to justify brewing beer or drinking. But there is a need as a Christian to be respectful of those who cannot or choose not to partake.

 

[cfrazier77]

The 1 Chronicles 9:29 was the one I'm thinking. "Other's of them" refers to 'other Levites' of the Priesthood.

Btw, I'm NOT a priest, pastor, father, etc. Just a servant of God.

Got where you are coming from now. I am a pastor, you are not. We are both just servants of God serving Him in different ways. We are both equal before our Lord.

 

[tektonjp]

I'm not going to read through this whole thing thread to check if this has been mentioned before, but I highly recommend : The Search for God and Guinness: A Biography of the Beer that Changed the World

"The history of Guinness, one of the world’s most famous brands, reveals the noble heights and generosity of a great family and an innovative business.

It began in Ireland in the late 1700s. The water in Ireland, indeed throughout Europe, was famously undrinkable, and the gin and whiskey that took its place was devastating civil society. It was a disease ridden, starvation plagued, alcoholic age, and Christians like Arthur Guinness—as well as monks and even evangelical churches—brewed beer that provided a healthier alternative to the poisonous waters and liquors of the times."

The Guinness family, its faith, and its business are worth studying. It may answer some of the questions posed here.

 

[sweetcell]

a prayer:

 

[Sammy86]

I am by no means a religious man and I can't recite scripture, hell it's been 5 years since I've stepped foot inside a house of worship. You can take what I say with a grain of salt, most people do.

I agree with what a lot of people have said here, keep it close to the chest until you see what kind of parish you have. Don't lie about it if asked, but I wouldn't go shopping it around right off the bat.

In the end you have to do what you feel is right, think about it, pray about it and follow your heart!

BREW ON!

 

[bleme]

My parents had one of those ARM's back before they were fashionable and from 2000 to 2002 the bank raised their mortgage from $500/mo to $1200/mo and they lost the house.

They were living in their van and were 'adopted' by a group of people known as The Mushroomers. Mushroomers pay $100 a year for a permit that allows them to camp in the National Forest and pick mushrooms that can't be cultivated.

They are a rough bunch of people with poor social skills and most of them have an addiction or four. My parents weren't really accepted as part of the group until they had a beer with them. They showed my parents the ropes: what mushrooms were good, where to sell them, where to get a cheap travel trailer, where to camp, etc.

My parents kept a Bible out at their campsite and on average, 3 people a day would stop by and ask their advice on something and my parents had the opportunity to share Scriptures and teach them some Godly wisdom.

Eventually, one of the Mushroomers asked if they could go to church with my parents. My parents took him to the Methodist church they normally attended and ended up being embarrassed by how poorly their friend was treated there. After that, they started attending the Baptist church in town.

Over a couple of years, my parents ended up getting 6 of the Mushroomers involved in the church. Even though the Baptists are traditionally less tolerant of alcohol, that congregation loved everybody and always welcomed anyone who came.

I think beer can open doors. None of those people would have ever gone to church if my parents didn't have a beer with them. However, love seems to be more important. The Baptist never drank with them, they just showed them that they cared.

Applied to the OP's question, I would say that if brewing is part of who you are, and the congregation can't love you, no matter their personal feelings about alcohol, you probably aren't where you are supposed to be.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

My parents had one of those ARM's back before they were fashionable and from 2000 to 2002 the bank raised their mortgage from $500/mo to $1200/mo and they lost the house.

They were living in their van and were 'adopted' by a group of people known as The Mushroomers. Mushroomers pay $100 a year for a permit that allows them to camp in the National Forest and pick mushrooms that can't be cultivated.

They are a rough bunch of people with poor social skills and most of them have an addiction or four. My parents weren't really accepted as part of the group until they had a beer with them. They showed my parents the ropes: what mushrooms were good, where to sell them, where to get a cheap travel trailer, where to camp, etc.

My parents kept a Bible out at their campsite and on average, 3 people a day would stop by and ask their advice on something and my parents had the opportunity to share Scriptures and teach them some Godly wisdom.

Eventually, one of the Mushroomers asked if they could go to church with my parents. My parents took him to the Methodist church they normally attended and ended up being embarrassed by how poorly their friend was treated there. After that, they started attending the Baptist church in town.

Over a couple of years, my parents ended up getting 6 of the Mushroomers involved in the church. Even though the Baptists are traditionally less tolerant of alcohol, that congregation loved everybody and always welcomed anyone who came.

I think beer can open doors. None of those people would have ever gone to church if my parents didn't have a beer with them. However, love seems to be more important. The Baptist never drank with them, they just showed them that they cared.

Applied to the OP's question, I would say that if brewing is part of who you are, and the congregation can't love you, no matter their personal feelings about alcohol, you probably aren't where you are supposed to be.

I love this story! (minus the poor treatment at the Methodist church) Thanks for sharing.

 

[tahoeguy]

Really am enjoying this thread. My way of doing my "Beer Ministry" is through my labels and names. I find that when I hand someone my beer and they want to know what it is, it almost always starts a conversation regarding the meaning of the name...also the beer of course
Crown of Thorns Bitter
Malevolent Herodias Wheat
Rooster Crows Centennial IPA
30 Pieces of Silver Triple
Sevenfold Vengeance Rye

Plus...it's a never ending supply of names!

 

[cfrazier77]

deleted post.

Exactly!

 

[yso191]

I've been a pastor of 3 Free Methodist churches for 23 years. FMs are far more legalistic about this than are UMs. A couple of thoughts: Times have changed considerably. I'll bet the percentage of people that would have a problem with it are a small minority. I don't broadcast it. It really isn't anybody's business, and you'll soon learn who you can talk to about it. And finally, if someone does have a problem with it, it is a teaching opportunity. That is why you are there. Legalism should be taught against. Universalising one's own calling to the whole church should be taught against. What I mean there if it is not clear is the personality that says: "God has instructed me to not drink at all, therefore it must be bad, and if it is bad for me it is bad for you and you're just not listening to God, so I'll speak for Him."

Anyway, I wouldn't anticipate a problem. Go and love your people. Be strong in the Truth. You'll do great.

@Brianyear: Can you give me a reference for that biography please?

Steve

 

[bottlebomber]

deleted post

Well actually, the bible clearly stayed that the earth will stand to time indefinite, and the righteous shall reside in it. The meek shall inherit the earth, etc. (Psalm 37). It was indeed Gods original purpose to have man dwell upon the earth for eternity as he set out to do in the garden of Eden with Adam. Gods purposes do not change, only the route he takes to reach them. Therefore, I intent to be drinking delicious beer for a very, very long time. I definitely agree with your point that being "saved" means repenting and changing. It doesn't do any good to save someone from a burning building if they keep running back inside.

 

[rhoop]

Well actually, the bible clearly stayed that the earth will stand to time indefinite, and the righteous shall reside in it. The meek shall inherit the earth, etc. (Psalm 37). It was indeed Gods original purpose to have man dwell upon the earth for eternity as he set out to do in the garden of Eden with Adam. Gods purposes do not change, only the route he takes to reach them. Therefore, I intent to be drinking delicious beer for a very, very long time. I definitely agree with your point that being "saved" means repenting and changing. It doesn't do any good to save someone from a burning building if they keep running back inside.

+1

I was about to say just this!

Thanks for this thread! I had already worked through this topic for myself, but there is a lot of food for thought here!

 

[xfevv]

Interesting topic. Kind of cool to see so many fellow ministers who brew. I've been a youth pastor for 14 years and have been brewing for the last four years. I learned how to brew from a friend at church who learned at a Lutheran church. Pretty much everyone at our church knows I brew beer, there are a number of other brewers in my church as well, I've even used it as a sermon illustration when I've preached on a Sunday morning to the congregation. I have yet to receive any negative feedback about my brewing habits

 

[RedGuitar]

One or two of you have asked for an update. Sorry it's overdue; as both a full time student and pastor, I'm not perusing HBT as much as I once did.

I have been at this church for about 9.5 months. They know I drink beer, but I haven't mentioned I brew my own. Why? Honestly, because I want a hobby that is not related to school or church. Funny enough, I now have 2 other student pastors home brewing, and I'm working on a third.

 

[RevZen]

RedGuitar, glad it's working out for you!

I am Presbyterian, and have been ordained for 15 years, serving in my current church for 7 years and have been homebrewing for almost 2 years - won my lessons in a church auction and was taught by a member after outbidding others to win. Served homebrews at an open house at our home. Some folks in the church never drink, a couple are in recovery, and most drink occasionally. There are a few brewers in the congregation. Most enjoy that I have something I enjoy doing. I don't brew so often as most homebrewers because I am in a doctoral program too and don't have enough time... basically I think it depends on the congregation, and how much you feel you have to share about your personal life. Sounds like you've worked it out well.

Neat to learn there are so many ordained brewers here!

Peace,
Susan

 

[Oddball]

Unfortunately for you, I am sure you will have some members, both old and young, who will not share your passion and be adamantly against it. I am afraid that it might even cost you your job, or at least make your life difficult, if the wrong people get wind of it. Like others have said, it really depends on the congregation and how much you want to share your personal life. I don't mean to discourage you but you are walking a thin line...

 

[tonyc318]

Unfortunately for you, I am sure you will have some members, both old and young, who will not share your passion and be adamantly against it. I am afraid that it might even cost you your job, or at least make your life difficult, if the wrong people get wind of it. Like others have said, it really depends on the congregation and how much you want to share your personal life. I don't mean to discourage you but you are walking a thin line...

This is why I'm very glad I'm at the church I'm at. I probably wouldn't be in ministry if it wasn't for this church. All of the leadership knows I brew, drinks my beer, and is excited for the opportunities it creates. I'm glad my congregation understands that if Jesus were in our town, we would be spending his time down at the local brewery and not in my church office. What a shame that so many churches have become behavior police instead of engaging our culture with the love of Jesus.