Milk Stout Recipe Critique Please - any/all comments welcome

[Rob2010SS]

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 50 SRM
Estimated IBU: 22.3 IBU
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
8.81 lbs Maris Otter 61%
1.22 lbs Crystal 60L 8%
1.30 lbs Chocolate Malt (350 SRM) 7%
1.25 lbs Roasted Barley 6%
.81 lbs Flaked Barley 5%
.70 lbs Flaked Oats 5%

Mash at 154*F for 60 minutes

.35 oz Magnum @ 60 minutes
1.0 oz East Kent Goldings @ 10 minutes
1.0 lb Lactose @ 10 minutes

1.5L Starter of WY1056, chilled and decanted

Ferment at 65*F until complete

1. My goal is a milk stout that is more chocolatey than roasty but can still have some roastiness.

2. I want to add something to this after fermentation is complete - cherries, coconut/almonds, peanut butter, cherries and grahams (grahams during mash). Something along these lines. Any suggestions?

 

[BarrelAgedForrest]

Cut your chocolate malt down to about 3 percent and use a few percent of carafa 1, cut the c60 down to 4 or 5 percent and add a few percent of melanodin. That much chocolate is going to lead to an astringent character. The melanodin will add a nice cake or cupcake sort of character. I'd also up the oats to 10 percent for a more creamy mouthfeel. Good luck!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks for the input. I got my numbers by comparing a bunch of the recipes here on the forum. I looked for overlapping characteristics and added my own tweaks. The chocolate percentages used were 6.06, 6.98, 4.08, 7.27. So I went with 7 on mine. I may drop it a bit like you said as well as the c60 and add the melanoiden.

Any other inputs?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As I said on the other thread, Mackeson is the originator of the style, arguably it's more fundamental to milk stout than say Anchor is to steam beer. But North American brewers seem to have made up their own interpretation - can you imagine BJCP guidelines for pilsner excluding Urquell? If it was my first ever milk stout, I would use an early Mackeson recipe as a reference point in the same way as I'd use Anchor as a starting point if making a steam beer. But up to you.

The one thing that really shouts as needing changing is the yeast - 1056 is exactly the wrong sort of yeast for the style. You want a characterful British yeast, with low attenuation so that you get the mouthfeel without needing to mess around with stuff like oats. And less crystal, obvs.

 

[Rob2010SS]

As I said on the other thread, Mackeson is the originator of the style, arguably it's more fundamental to milk stout than say Anchor is to steam beer. But North American brewers seem to have made up their own interpretation - can you imagine BJCP guidelines for pilsner excluding Urquell? If it was my first ever milk stout, I would use an early Mackeson recipe as a reference point in the same way as I'd use Anchor as a starting point if making a steam beer. But up to you.

The one thing that really shouts as needing changing is the yeast - 1056 is exactly the wrong sort of yeast for the style. You want a characterful British yeast, with low attenuation so that you get the mouthfeel without needing to mess around with stuff like oats. And less crystal, obvs.

So in my research, I found a lot of people using US-05 with this style. Since 1056 is supposedly the same strain, I figured it'd be ok.

What are your recommendations on yeasts for this style?

 

[snowveil]

IMO yeast selection is critical in a good stout. I've done split batches with Cal Ale (wlp001/wy1056/s05) and other yeasts and have always preferred the more characterful yeasts.

I'm personally a fan of Wyeast 1272 to keep a malt-forward beer relatively clean but still add some character.

I've also used WLP013 a bunch of times in stouts and it lends a sweet/oak type of character from the esters it throws off, and tends to accentuate malt flavor.

I also like to sub half of my Roast Barley in a recipe for Briess Blackprinz. It tends to soften the roast edge a bit and round out the flavor. Midnight Wheat, Carafa III, or any other dehusked roasted grain should do the trick as well. Again this is personal preference but I've had great feedback after making these tweaks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So in my research, I found a lot of people using US-05 with this style. Since 1056 is supposedly the same strain, I figured it'd be ok.

What are your recommendations on yeasts for this style?

Some people would use US-05 in saisons or for breadmaking, they just don't think that hard about yeast. As I say, you want a characterfull British yeast with low attenuation. Since you're new to the style I wouldn't get too fancy with it, just use something that's really easy to work with like WLP002/1968 or its relative WLP041. I've not used the latter in a dark beer, but I've liked what I've seen of it so far. Or something like Mangrove Jack M15 Empire.

In theory, a Whitbread yeast like 1098 or 1099 would be appropriate for Mackeson, I've not worked out which one (if either) got used in real life and they are a bit more fiddly to use. I imagine S-04 would go nuts with a milk stout, given how keen it is to produce lactic acid even without added lactose, so avoid that.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Alright, modified it a bit... I took some of the input here and changed up the grain bill and the yeast a bit. See below... Look better?


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 50 SRM
Estimated IBU: 22.3 IBU
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
8.81 lbs Maris Otter 61%
1.07 lbs Crystal 60L 7%
1.11 lbs Chocolate Malt (350 SRM) 6%
.62 lbs Roasted Barley 3%
.62 lbs Blackprinz Malt 3%
.81 lbs Flaked Barley 5%
.98 lbs Flaked Oats 7%

Mash at 154*F for 60 minutes

.35 oz Magnum @ 60 minutes
1.0 oz East Kent Goldings @ 10 minutes
1.0 lb Lactose @ 10 minutes

1.5L Starter of WY1272 or WY1099, chilled and decanted

Ferment at 65*F until complete

Still unsure about yeast. Haven't quite made up my mind.

 

[HomeBrewMasterRace]

I'd add some cocoa nibs after fermentation if you want more chocolate flavor but less smokeyness. I did this a while back with vanilla beans as well.

Just a thought.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I was actually thinking about cocoa nibs. Then I started thinking about making this a chocolate peanut butter milk stout.

What's the best way to get peanut butter flavor? I've read about PB2 powder, is that a good option?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Still unsure about yeast. Haven't quite made up my mind.

For me it's pretty simple - either you go with British-style hopping and use a British-style yeast, or US hops and US yeast. Otherwise you end up with something that's neither one thing nor the other. For me 1272 would be way too bland for a dark beer in the British tradition, which is why I suggested WLP041 - despite the name it's a British yeast, a bit fruitier than WLP002/1968.

There's a ton of threads on HBT on the abomination that is peanut butter beer - from what I've seen PB2 kinda works, but there's artificial flavourings that work better. You're welcome to them.

 

[Hopalong]

The conversion rest is omitted and without it no Stout will be made. The rest is omitted because Marris Otter is lacking in Beta amylase and without conversion the complex types of sugar that are needed in ale and lager are not formed. When conversion occurs secondary fermentation is required. The beer will not require priming sugar or CO2 for carbonation, natural carbonation will happen during aging.
There are a few companies producing Marris Otter go on line and find out who's producing the malt and obtain the spec sheets. On a spec sheet is the percentage of protein and modification (Kolbach and SNR indicate modification) purchase the malt that is lowest in percentage of protein because it has more sugar in it. I saw an ad for 8% protein Marris Otter which is very good. Order some Alpha-Beta amylase at the same time and during the mashing cycle rest the mash for 30 minutes at 140 to 145F to activate the enzyme and conversion will occur. Then, use the 154F temperature.
To produce creamy texture boil some of the base malt for at least an hour, longer is better for Porter, Stout and Pils because they're produced from a dextrin rich wort. For Maillard Reaction and Melanoidin to form mash is boiled for over an hour.
When mash is boiled a type of heat resistant, complex starch called amylopectin enters into solution. Amylopectin makes up the tips of grain and because it's complex starch it's the richest starch in malt. Contained within amylopectin are types of sugar called A and B limit dextrin which are tasteless, nonfermenting types of sugar that are responsible for body and mouthfeel.
Use the boiling mash to raise the main mash temperature from 140, 145F to 154F. Dextrinization will take place along with saccharification during the 154F rest. Alpha will be busy with amylose and amylopectin at the same time.
The temperatures used during infusion are too low to cause the starch to enter into solution before Alpha denatures and the starch ends up in the spent mash. It looks like small, white pieces. Without limit dextrin beer thins as it ages.

Before adding hops bring the wort to boiling and as the hot break rises skim it off and continue to remove it until it ceases to form or at least drastically reduces, then add bittering hops and skim off the second break. The wort will be a little cleaner and less hops are needed. Hop character sticks a little better when wort is clean. Less goop will be carried over into the fermenter, too.

Although, it's not English-Irish malt Weyermann Dark Pils floor malt is very rich malt. It's slightly under modified which means it is rich in enzyme content and it is low in percentage of protein.
It's good to know about the malt that is going to be used because there are two types of malt on the market. There is under modified, low protein malt which is used for brewing ale and lager and there's fully modified, high protein malt which is used for making whiskey.
The key to the type of malt is in the recipe. When a recipe recommends single temperature infusion the malt is distillers malt. The beer will be similar in quality to Prohibition style beer. When a recipe recommends a three or four temperature step mash, the malt is brewers grade and it produces pseudo ale and lager. When a recipe recommends triple decoction which they seldom if ever mention the malt is brewers grade and due to the various things that occur when mash is boiled a few times authentic ale and lager are produced.

 

[Rob2010SS]

The conversion rest is omitted and without it no Stout will be made. The rest is omitted because Marris Otter is lacking in Beta amylase and without conversion the complex types of sugar that are needed in ale and lager are not formed. When conversion occurs secondary fermentation is required. The beer will not require priming sugar or CO2 for carbonation, natural carbonation will happen during aging.
There are a few companies producing Marris Otter go on line and find out who's producing the malt and obtain the spec sheets. On a spec sheet is the percentage of protein and modification (Kolbach and SNR indicate modification) purchase the malt that is lowest in percentage of protein because it has more sugar in it. I saw an ad for 8% protein Marris Otter which is very good. Order some Alpha-Beta amylase at the same time and during the mashing cycle rest the mash for 30 minutes at 140 to 145F to activate the enzyme and conversion will occur. Then, use the 154F temperature.
To produce creamy texture boil some of the base malt for at least an hour, longer is better for Porter, Stout and Pils because they're produced from a dextrin rich wort. For Maillard Reaction and Melanoidin to form mash is boiled for over an hour.
When mash is boiled a type of heat resistant, complex starch called amylopectin enters into solution. Amylopectin makes up the tips of grain and because it's complex starch it's the richest starch in malt. Contained within amylopectin are types of sugar called A and B limit dextrin which are tasteless, nonfermenting types of sugar that are responsible for body and mouthfeel.
Use the boiling mash to raise the main mash temperature from 140, 145F to 154F. Dextrinization will take place along with saccharification during the 154F rest. Alpha will be busy with amylose and amylopectin at the same time.
The temperatures used during infusion are too low to cause the starch to enter into solution before Alpha denatures and the starch ends up in the spent mash. It looks like small, white pieces. Without limit dextrin beer thins as it ages.

Before adding hops bring the wort to boiling and as the hot break rises skim it off and continue to remove it until it ceases to form or at least drastically reduces, then add bittering hops and skim off the second break. The wort will be a little cleaner and less hops are needed. Hop character sticks a little better when wort is clean. Less goop will be carried over into the fermenter, too.

Although, it's not English-Irish malt Weyermann Dark Pils floor malt is very rich malt. It's slightly under modified which means it is rich in enzyme content and it is low in percentage of protein.
It's good to know about the malt that is going to be used because there are two types of malt on the market. There is under modified, low protein malt which is used for brewing ale and lager and there's fully modified, high protein malt which is used for making whiskey.
The key to the type of malt is in the recipe. When a recipe recommends single temperature infusion the malt is distillers malt. The beer will be similar in quality to Prohibition style beer. When a recipe recommends a three or four temperature step mash, the malt is brewers grade and it produces pseudo ale and lager. When a recipe recommends triple decoction which they seldom if ever mention the malt is brewers grade and due to the various things that occur when mash is boiled a few times authentic ale and lager are produced.

So, I wanted to follow up after this comment. I am not replying to be contradictory or an a-hole. I'm replying so that when another newbie sees this and is questioning their grain bill, they don't think that they CAN'T use MO for a base malt. I enjoy seeing threads followed up on as it gives future people some feedback to read.

This came out just fine. There was no rest needed prior to bringing to mash temp. I doughed in at 165.5*F and mash settled at 154.1*F. I mashed for 90 minutes, simply because I was a bit worried after this last post and seeing that the DP of my brew was only 39 on Brewer's Friend.

I'm not saying that the extra rest wouldn't have helped. Perhaps it would have, but it is not absolutely necessary in this case.