Maybe beer brewing is not for me!

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I am confused, frustrated, and about to give up on brewing beer! 3 out of my last 6 extract batches have turned to vinegar. I have made an orange wheat, a cherry wheat, and a nut brown that have turned out fine but in between those I have tried an autumn amber and 2 holiday ales that have not. They seem fine at bottling and even start to carbonate, but then they go flat and sour.

Since my first bad batch, I have been extra careful about sanitation. I use StarSan and make sure everything that is going to come in contact with my beer is sanitized. I used the same equipment on the batches that turned out good as the ones that didn't, I followed the same procedures, used the same tap water, etc., etc. I can't come up with anything I did differently or what I am doing wrong! I have also made lots of wine with the same carboys, airlocks, etc. and they have all been fantastic.

Please help me figure out where I am going wrong! It is so disappointing to open a bottle of brew and realized that you have failed again, not to mention the waste of time and money

 

[Hopper5000]

Sounds like you have an infection problem. I would replace everything that is rubber or plastic that touches your beer post boil.

 

[unionrdr]

What kind of bottles did you use? Maybe they didn't seal properly & went south while carbing/conditioning?

 

[spark_plug]

How warm is your wort when you pitch the yeast? That is one thing I learned when I first started brewing beer, if its to warm when you pitch it gives your beer a sour vinegar taste.

 

[unionrdr]

More like sour apple (cider vinegar to some?) with high pitch temps.

 

[solbes]

Since you are a winemaker also, I'm assuming you are not giving these beers a lot of headspace in secondary, correct? If its turning to vinegar (acetic acid) you have acetobacter, which needs oxygen to grow. I'm also assuming you are racking carefully without introducing oxygen?

You certainly could replace all plastic and rubber as Hopper suggests. If you are strapped for cash, a shock and awe campaign with bleach also works pretty well. Fill your fermentation bucket with 5 tablespoons of bleach in 5 gallons of cool water. Soak all of your plastic stuff in it for 25-30 minutes. Then rinse the heck out of it with hot water, and then sanitize with Starsan. Should pretty much kill everything. I've had to resort to this once or twice and it always works.

 

[blizz81]

If they "start to carbonate" but then "go flat", I would check your bottles and / or your capper.

 

[unionrdr]

^ This is why I wondered what type of bottles he used? If using PET bottles, maybe the caps weren't screwed on ridiculously tight. I learned that one the hard way.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

What kind of bottles did you use? Maybe they didn't seal properly & went south while carbing/conditioning?

I use a combination of 12 and 22 oz. brown bottles and cap them with the oxy absorbing caps. I always store them in a dark location as well.

 

[unionrdr]

In that case, in my experiences, my Red Baron wing capper wasn't getting the caps tight enough anymore. It seems the bell had stretched out a bit. This left the bottles able to leak carbonation as the yeasties wet to work on them. Wet cardboard major funk in the ones that didn't seal well. This is oxygenation. Acetobacter got to yours somehow if they really taste like vinegar. Otherwise what you think is vinegar could be a bad case of diacetyl.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

How warm is your wort when you pitch the yeast? That is one thing I learned when I first started brewing beer, if its to warm when you pitch it gives your beer a sour vinegar taste.

Thanks for this suggestion! This could be a possibility, I suppose. I usually do a 3 gallon boil, cool my wort in an ice bath, and then top off with water that has been refrigerated. I am pretty sure that my wort is in the 70 degree range when I pitch the yeast, but maybe not??? I will certainly pay closer attention to this aspect of the process.

 

[unionrdr]

It's more of a sour apple taste that could be perceived as cider vinegar by some. Commonly known as diacetyl.

 

[GarageDweller]

you do boil the topoff water before you cool it right? if not, its a possible source of contamination. Do you have temperature control for your fermentation vessel? How long are you allowing them to bottle condition before chilling and sampling?

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Since you are a winemaker also, I'm assuming you are not giving these beers a lot of headspace in secondary, correct? If its turning to vinegar (acetic acid) you have acetobacter, which needs oxygen to grow. I'm also assuming you are racking carefully without introducing oxygen?

You certainly could replace all plastic and rubber as Hopper suggests. If you are strapped for cash, a shock and awe campaign with bleach also works pretty well. Fill your fermentation bucket with 5 tablespoons of bleach in 5 gallons of cool water. Soak all of your plastic stuff in it for 25-30 minutes. Then rinse the heck out of it with hot water, and then sanitize with Starsan. Should pretty much kill everything. I've had to resort to this once or twice and it always works.

I use an All-in-One wine pump to transfer under vacuum so there is no oxygen introduced during racking. I will definitely try the bleach campaign for now but replace my tubing when I can.

I do my primary in a glass carboy with a blowoff tube. After my first bad batch, I made sure the blowoff hose was thoroughly sanitized and that the end was in a bucket of sanitizing solution, not just water, thinking this is where I had gone wrong...but it hasn't solved my issue.

 

[spark_plug]

Yeah, if you pitch your yeast at a low temperature (65F) and allow the yeast to start working in cool wort and rise the temp on their own it will give the beer a cleaner taste.

But as unionrdr had mentioned, check your capper, if you have one of those two handled red baron style, they are famous for wearing out and not putting a good seal on your cap. A bench capper for the extra cash is worth it.

 

[solbes]

It's more of a sour apple taste that could be perceived as cider vinegar by some. Commonly known as diacetyl.

Don't you mean Acetaldehyde tasting like sour apples? Diacetyl is a buttery or buterscotch flavor, very different from sour apple flavor.

 

[QuercusMax]

It's more of a sour apple taste that could be perceived as cider vinegar by some. Commonly known as diacetyl.

BZZT! Wrong chemical. Diacetyl tastes like artificial butter / butterscotch. Acetaldehyde has a "green apple" flavor, but it's not especially sour. Both are fermentation byproducts - diacetyl is produced especially at lower temperatures, but will be reabsorbed if you raise the temperature toward the end of primary fermentation. Acetaldehyde can be caused by racking too soon, or pitching too much yeast.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

If they "start to carbonate" but then "go flat", I would check your bottles and / or your capper.

I was wondering that as well but my bottles get sanitized with StarSan and I also spray down my capper with the solution prior to starting.

 

[unionrdr]

My point exactly. The bells seem to wear out on the wing cappers by virtue of their design. But the bell can be replaced, as it screws on. Just a couple bucks. Or just use that as an excuse to get the super agata bench capper like I did. On a side note, I donated my Red Baron to a fellow member down on his luck that needed a capper, but could only afford the new bell. Everybody wins.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

In that case, in my experiences, my Red Baron wing capper wasn't getting the caps tight enough anymore. It seems the bell had stretched out a bit. This left the bottles able to leak carbonation as the yeasties wet to work on them. Wet cardboard major funk in the ones that didn't seal well. This is oxygenation. Acetobacter got to yours somehow if they really taste like vinegar. Otherwise what you think is vinegar could be a bad case of diacetyl.

I have a bench capper, but I suppose it could be experiencing the same issue. I normally "tip" my bottles to check for leakage though...could I get oxygen introduction even without beer leaking out during the tip test?

 

[unionrdr]

BZZT! Wrong chemical. Diacetyl tastes like artificial butter / butterscotch. Acetaldehyde has a "green apple" flavor, but it's not especially sour. Both are fermentation byproducts - diacetyl is produced especially at lower temperatures, but will be reabsorbed if you raise the temperature toward the end of primary fermentation. Acetaldehyde can be caused by racking too soon, or pitching too much yeast.

Dang. Mixed'em up again. My bad. Anyway, they now think these compounds are produced during the growth or "lag" phase when initial temps are too high. And it can be fairly sour if it's produced in sufficient PPM's (Parts Per Million). The yeast can only clean up so much of it. I've never gotten diacetyl at low temps, but only higher initial temps.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

you do boil the topoff water before you cool it right? if not, its a possible source of contamination. Do you have temperature control for your fermentation vessel? How long are you allowing them to bottle condition before chilling and sampling?

I went to using store bought spring water for topping off after the first bad batch, thinking my tap water was the source of contamination, but I have since had additional bad batches.

I don't have temperature control for my fermentation vessel. It has a stick on thermometer and temperatures don't seem to rise out of control, especially now with the cooler temps.

My last bad batch has been in the bottle for 3-4 weeks. Like I said, when I opened a bottle after a couple of weeks, it was starting to ferment...when I opened a bottle last night it was almost flat.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I don't detect any buttery notes, just SOUR! I suppose it could be green apple-ish as opposed to vinegary...all I know is that it is not good...lol.

 

[Rootski]

No one has asked how long you fermented. How long are you leaving the beers on the yeast cake before racking? Yeast needs time to clean up some weird flavors, even after airlock activity has completely stopped.

It does sound like a bottle thing though. Your bottles should not be losing carbonation, so it's either chipped bottles, or faulty caps, or faulty cap installation.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

No one has asked how long you fermented. How long are you leaving the beers on the yeast cake before racking? Yeast needs time to clean up some weird flavors, even after airlock activity has completely stopped.

It does sound like a bottle thing though. Your bottles should not be losing carbonation, so it's either chipped bottles, or faulty caps, or faulty cap installation.

The beers have been fermented for different lengths of time, following the extract kit instructions. They haven't been rushed into the bottle at least. After my first failure, especially, I tried to do everything "by the book".

Is there a way to confirm faulty cap installation? As I noted in a previous reply, I always "tip" my bottles upside down to check for beer leakage thinking this would confirm a good seal but maybe not???

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

So one other note...I really have a hard time leaving the trub behind in the kettle when I pour the wort into the fermenter. Could this be a source of sour flavors? The person who taught me just used a funnel and poured the cooled wort into the carboy but would racking be better so that more trub could be left behind?

 

[LLBeanJ]

No, lots of us do the same thing. The trub is your friend.

 

[LLBeanJ]

It doesn't sound like you're doing anything obviously wrong. I'd do the bleach bomb treatment on everything that comes into contact with your wort/beer post-boil and give it another go.

 

[ncboiler]

As I noted in a previous reply, I always "tip" my bottles upside down to check for beer leakage thinking this would confirm a good seal but maybe not???

Is this a good idea? Seems like it would oxygenate the beer.

 

[unionrdr]

No. Just a gentle tipping up side down once to be sure o2 caps are activated is what I do. Doesn't cause anything.

 

[sudbuddy]

It's more of a sour apple taste that could be perceived as cider vinegar by some. Commonly known as diacetyl.

I think you might be thinking of acetaldehyde, which gives off a strong sour apple taste. Diacetyl is a nasty buttery flavor. Usually acetaldehyde is a result of an incomplete fermentation or the beer simply being too young. Are you using a secondary fermentation? If you are, are you making sure you hit your final gravity before you rack? Don't give up on beer! Everyone brews a bad one at some point, but it will get better.

 

[Transamguy77]

The beers have been fermented for different lengths of time, following the extract kit instructions. They haven't been rushed into the bottle at least. After my first failure, especially, I tried to do everything "by the book".

When your beer is "finished" are you checking that with a hydrometer to make sure it's finished and are you doing a secondary? And as far as "by the book" what is that? Most beers should ferment 3-4 weeks
before bottling or kegging.

If you are doing a secondary try not doing one and see if that changes anything.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

Is this a good idea? Seems like it would oxygenate the beer.

It shouldn't oxygenate the beer...well, as long as the cap is tight and it is sealed well, no oxygen should be able to get in.

 

[unionrdr]

I think you might be thinking of acetaldehyde, which gives off a strong sour apple taste. Diacetyl is a nasty buttery flavor. Usually acetaldehyde is a result of an incomplete fermentation or the beer simply being too young. Are you using a secondary fermentation? If you are, are you making sure you hit your final gravity before you rack? Don't give up on beer! Everyone brews a bad one at some point, but it will get better.

Yeah, I corrected that on page 3. But I agree that "by the book" could be a problem here as well? Not enough time to allow the yeast to clean up for 3-7 days per my experiments early on.

 

[Val-the-Brew-Gal]

I think you might be thinking of acetaldehyde, which gives off a strong sour apple taste. Diacetyl is a nasty buttery flavor. Usually acetaldehyde is a result of an incomplete fermentation or the beer simply being too young. Are you using a secondary fermentation? If you are, are you making sure you hit your final gravity before you rack? Don't give up on beer! Everyone brews a bad one at some point, but it will get better.

I had hoped that the sour taste was simply due to the beer being young or green, but the taste becomes more sour over time, not less.

I have tried both with and without a secondary fermentation, thinking maybe I was contaminating the beer during racking. If memory serves me right (I will have to check my notes) I have had a bad batch both ways. I perhaps haven't been as diligent in checking gravity as I should but you would almost think that if fermentation hadn't completed I would end up with bottle bombs instead of a flat sour concoction, wouldn't you?

 

[BrotherBock]

If it seems to taste fine going into the bottle then I'd rule out the fermenter as a source of infection. but I'd bleach that anyway. Considering you're beers go flat, it would seem that the problem is somewhere in the bottling process. If it was just an infection I'd think the bottles would stay carbed or increase in carbonation.

The fact that it goes flat points to something being wrong with the seal. Maybe your caps are faulty and you're storing them someplace where bugs are creeping in.

If I were you I'd sanitize everything or bleach everything like a mad person and replace all plastic tubing and then designate beer plastic from wine plastic to avoid cross contamination. Perhaps the culprit is a bug from the wine? Then I'd buy new caps and maybe replace the bell of the capper in case its the problem. Then maybe make a "test" batch. Like a starter that will ferment fast and then you can carbonate a few bottles just to test the seal.

If bugs get into plastic it's next to impossible to get rid of them. If using plastic fermenter or tubing, I'd replace them.

 

[porterpounder]

If you're getting sour and vinegar it's not acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde will be green apple, but not really sour. How do you know that the beer starts carbonating then goes flat? Tipping a bottle over to check will give you some bubbles even if fermentation is not happening. If it is carbonating and going flat, like many above posts have eluded to, you need a new capper, bell or method. Other sources of infection likely in your process are the top-off water and how you treat your priming sugar. Pre-boil top-off water and refrigerate in a sanitizer container and make sure you are boiling your priming sugar prior to introduction into the bottling bucket.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's another one I'll toss in. Do you have spigots on your fermenters? I do, & they must be taken apart & cleaned, rinsed & sanitised before re-assembling them to the pail.

 

[porterpounder]

Oh, and some people don't believe in sanitizing the oxygen absorbing caps as the moment they get wet they are activated and they assume that opening a new package is a opening a sanitized package. Sanitize your caps.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, we had a big discussion on the o2 barrier caps a year or two ago. I don't think soaking them is a good idea, since that could activate them. Instead, I dunk them in Starsan right before placing them on the filled bottles. Then crimp the caps & tip upside down once to be sure they're activated. But I think one likely concern is the capper not crimping them down the sides completely.