Mashout decoction?

[Pennine]

Interesting podcast below. He talks about doing a mashout decoction, where I think he means he takes out 2/3 of the wort and then boils the rest of the wort with the grains after the mashout? Maybe I am misunderstanding? But it got me to thinking. Could I do a decoction simply by taking half the grain bill after mashout and putting it in a hop spider during the boil for 15 minutes?

https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-...i-of-moontown-director-of-brewing-operations/

 

[Bassman2003]

I did not listen to the podcast but doing such a late decoction seems like a "starchy" idea. Meaning, you will release new starch from the grain by doing a decoction but all of your enzymes are already denatured. So that starch will just go through to the boil and to the fermenter.

 

[rmr9]

Maybe? I think what they’re doing (without listening to the podcast yet) is adapting their process so they can decoction mash in a brewhouse not designed for it.

Typically you’re pulling the smaller portion out, boiling it and returning it to the large portion to raise the temperature of the whole. I don’t see how you’d get the “benefits” (much debate on this) of decoction just boiling half the grain in wort.

I plan to try a few decoction mash brew days this fall but I’ll probably stick to a standard hochkurz double decoction not something out of the box. But you could give your idea a try and report back to us with results!

 

[Pennine]

Yes that's exactly it, they don't have the brewhouse to do traditional decoction. If I heard him correctly he always does a step mash, 52-62-68-72-76 and then a mashout decoction where 2/3rds of the wort is removed and the rest is boiled.

I am wondering if Bassman2003 is right and the point being to bring some unconverted starch into the boil?

 

[G_robertus]

Yes that's exactly it, they don't have the brewhouse to do traditional decoction. If I heard him correctly he always does a step mash, 52-62-68-72-76 and then a mashout decoction where 2/3rds of the wort is removed and the rest is boiled.

I am wondering if Bassman2003 is right and the point being to bring some unconverted starch into the boil?

I'm inclined to say that even with very poor quality barley you'll have converted pretty much all starches if you mash like that. I don't recall what the highest gelatinisation temperatures are but I think 76°C should take care of most if not all. Residual enzyme activity will likely convert the starches as well.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am coming at it from the point that the decoction itself releases new starches that were previously unavailable to the mash. So this new starch has no time with enzymes as it would go from the boil temps of the decoction straight to the boil kettle via the lauter. Maybe some time in the lauter would have *some* enzymatic activity but that might be a stretch. The amount of new starch would be up for debate or depends upon the length of the decoction. But in my view, an earlier decoction is more useful.

 

[mac_1103]

I am coming at it from the point that the decoction itself releases new starches that were previously unavailable to the mash.

Maybe I'm missing something, but where are these new starches coming from if you got 100% gelatinization in the mash?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm with @G_robertus & @mac_1103 . After the step mash schedule used (125.6 - 143.6 - 154.4 - 161.6 - 168.8°F for those not Celsius fluent), there will be little, if any, residual starch that can be gelatinized during the post-mash-out decoction.

Brew on

 

[hungupdown]

After the mashout, everything is boiled.
So separating part, to boil separately, seems a waste of time. Unless there's more detail we haven't been told?

 

[Bassman2003]

Maybe I'm missing something, but where are these new starches coming from if you got 100% gelatinization in the mash?

I might be wrong but I thought boiling the grain itself released more than could ever be reached with a normal mash. I have found decoctions often result in more efficiency. But maybe I am not making the most of my mash in my full volume Anvil Foundry.

 

[doug293cz]

After the mashout, everything is boiled.
So separating part, to boil separately, seems a waste of time. Unless there's more detail we haven't been told?

They are boiling wort with some of the grain, just like a normal decoction, but they do it later in the process. Supposedly, boiling some of the grain results in more Maillard reactions resulting in more/enhanced/different flavor in the beer.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

After the mashout, everything is boiled.
So separating part, to boil separately, seems a waste of time. Unless there's more detail we haven't been told?

It is more about boiling the grain than the wort. But if what Mac & Doug are saying happens, then it seems like it would not have much of an impact outside of maybe some caramelization.

 

[doug293cz]

I might be wrong but I thought boiling the grain itself released more than could ever be reached with a normal mash. I have found decoctions often result in more efficiency. But maybe I am not making the most of my mash in my full volume Anvil Foundry.

A decoction will definitely gelatinize starch faster than occurs at mash temps, but given enough time gelatinization will complete at mash temps. If you see increased conversion efficiency when doing a decoction, then the underlying mash schedule is inadequate for gelatinizing all of the available starch.

Brew on

 

[G_robertus]

I am coming at it from the point that the decoction itself releases new starches that were previously unavailable to the mash. So this new starch has no time with enzymes as it would go from the boil temps of the decoction straight to the boil kettle via the lauter. Maybe some time in the lauter would have *some* enzymatic activity but that might be a stretch. The amount of new starch would be up for debate or depends upon the length of the decoction. But in my view, an earlier decoction is more useful.

I understand, but I'm wondering whether or how much starch is left in barley malt after mashing at 76°C. I think the second gelatinisation peak is around 75°C, so if the last step is long enough you should be able to dissolve and convert those in say ten to fifteen minutes. I'm completely guessing the timeframe, but I think that is about how long it would take for any residual enzymes to denature. Of course this is coming right after a long mash, so one can ask themselves whether it would take that long to denature the enzymes.

I might be wrong but I thought boiling the grain itself released more than could ever be reached with a normal mash. I have found decoctions often result in more efficiency. But maybe I am not making the most of my mash in my full volume Anvil Foundry.

You are indeed correct. Especially when growth conditions are harsh, starch gelatinisation temperatures show a large divide. This is because the size of starch granules can change depending on how the barley was grown/treated during growth. Poor conditions lead to a relatively large amount of small granules, which are tougher to dissolve. They need higher temperatures to dissolve and that in turn could be addressed with a decoction. Usually even the smaller granules dissolve around 75°C, but that is peak activity meaning there is a range from below that point to above that point. I'll dig through some files to see whether I can find the entire range for 2023/2024 European barley because I've made myself curious.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the replies. Just seems a bit risky compared to the benefits. I wonder how much benefit there is compared to the normal mash schedule or compared to a beta or alpha decoction?

I have always thought darker grists as well as wheat benefit from decoction a bit more because of difficulty to get to the starch in these grains. Might this schedule might be more risky for these beers?

 

[Pennine]

After the mashout, everything is boiled.
So separating part, to boil separately, seems a waste of time. Unless there's more detail we haven't been told?

I listened again and this is the process as I understand it.

Step mash (in C) 52-62-68-72 then pull off 2/3 of the mash, boil the remaining 1/3 for 10-20 min, then add to the remaining 2/3 for mashout then lauter and boil immediately.

The decoction step is used to raise to mashout temp, similar to a traditional decoction step being used to increase temps.

I would assume not much additional conversion would happen after the mashout decoction step and likely any residual starches or changes from physically boiling grain are what impact the final product.

 

[DavidBD]

Boiling supposedly explodes starch granules and makes more starches available. Speaking of podcasts, there is a good one from May 27, 2010 on Basic Brewing Radio named Kai's Take on Decoction. In that episode, I think Kai said that a final decoction to reach mashout is properly done with the thin part of the mash. This makes sense because you wouldn't want to put a lot more starch molecules into solution without active enzymes to break them down. He covers several different decoction schedules and techniques in the podcast. It's informative.

 

[Pennine]

Boiling supposedly explodes starch granules and makes more starches available. Speaking of podcasts, there is a good one from May 27, 2010 on Basic Brewing Radio named Kai's Take on Decoction. In that episode, I think Kai said that a final decoction to reach mashout is properly done with the thin part of the mash. This makes sense because you wouldn't want to put a lot more starch molecules into solution without active enzymes to break them down. He covers several different decoction schedules and techniques in the podcast. It's informative.

Nice thanks I'll check it out, I am sure I have listened to it before. I was actually going to write to James about doing a Kai redux like he did with Jack M recently as he was asking for suggestions. I do really appreciate Kai's episodes and website.

 

[doug293cz]

Nice thanks I'll check it out, I am sure I have listened to it before. I was actually going to write to James about doing a Kai redux like he did with Jack M recently as he was asking for suggestions. I do really appreciate Kai's episodes and website.

Last time I checked, Kai's website has gone dark

Brew on

 

[hottpeper13]

I think that some unconverted starch is released during the decoction process. Every corn of grain that is modified in the malting process has some unconverted starch in the distal end because they stop conversion at 3/4 to 7/8 length of acuspire. That small amount might be enough to make the wort and beer cloudy. I've never done an iodine test, maybe someone should. I believe this is why Kunce and others do a thin (wort only) mashout decoction.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Seems to be making decent beer with this method of decoction.

 

[Pennine]

I think that some unconverted starch is released during the decoction process. Every corn of grain that is modified in the malting process has some unconverted starch in the distal end because they stop conversion at 3/4 to 7/8 length of acuspire. That small amount might be enough to make the wort and beer cloudy. I've never done an iodine test, maybe someone should. I believe this is why Kunce and others do a thin (wort only) mashout decoction.

What would be the benefit of a mash only decoction?

 

[hottpeper13]

What would be the benefit of a mash only decoction?

Not sure I understand the question but here gose. When you pull a thick mostly grains and bring them to the 143* rest 20 min then to 160 rest 20 min then boil you are converting before the boil and releasing the starch which is converted after adding back to main mash. If you need to learn more my I suggest Technology Brewing and Malting by Kunce. It answers all my questions about process and procedures.

 

[Pennine]

Not sure I understand the question but here gose. When you pull a thick mostly grains and bring them to the 143* rest 20 min then to 160 rest 20 min then boil you are converting before the boil and releasing the starch which is converted after adding back to main mash. If you need to learn more my I suggest Technology Brewing and Malting by Kunce. It answers all my questions about process and procedures.

Sorry I asked that wrong, what is the benefit of a wort only decoction?

 

[rmr9]

Sorry I asked that wrong, what is the benefit of a wort only decoction?

I think the benefit is in using that wort only decoction to raise the main mash to mashout temps

 

[hottpeper13]

If you can't recirc to raise temp boiling the wort (where most of the enzymes are) stabilizes the sugar profile and when added to the mash should get to 170 or so for better foam stability.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

It kind of occurs to me that the bigger euro breweries that still do decoction, must end up doing something similar to what these guys describe. The big guys pump a chunk of the mash away and decoct it, then pump it back. That pumping process has to have quite a bit of wort (fluid) with it. These guys leave 1/3 to 1/4 of the wort with the mash and boil. Then add it to the boil. It is not the "thickest part" of the mash, certainly thicker then the rest of the mash, but I can see it not being far off from what the big guys do. Thoughts?