Mashing out in the Boil Kettle

[SkunkFunkk]

Hey guys,

I am having troubles raising the temperature in the mash tun when i want to mash out

I use a 3 x 50gal kettles HERMS system with 2x5500w elements in the HLT and BK and,

I have to raise the temperature in my HLT to 185/190 to get my MT temperature up to 170, then i have to wait a little bit so my HLT cool down and then fly sparge at 170....

Dont you think i should be mashing out in the BK and start fly sparging at 170 whenever my HLT is ready for it ?

This could reduce my brew day by an hour since I have to wait for my wort to reach 170 in my MT and then wait for the HLT to get from 185 to 170...

Thank you for your time

Ben

 

[Dland]

Usually I fly sparge with 185-190F water. I seem to get better efficiency than with the "normal" sparge water temps. Have not noticed any ill effect. As long as your mash temp does not get over 170F(mine never does), it should not leach any tanens.

 

[Robert65]

Sparge temperature is pretty irrelevant. Rising pH is what causes extraction of silicates and tannins. As long as there is no alkalinity in you sparge liquor, you can sparge at any temperature up to boiling, provided you have achieved complete gelatinization and conversion in the mash and will not be carrying newly available starch into the kettle. That should simplify things for you.

 

[SkunkFunkk]

But which down side should I expect if i get my wort temperature to 170 by heating it with my electric elements in the boil kettle while i slowly sparge it

 

[Robert65]

I find that a 10 minute or so mash off is a very useful step. It will ensure the last bit of conversion, getting you a little more yield -- I usually see it get me the last couple of °P in mash density to reach 100% conversion efficiency. It's also the temperature for glycoprotein synthesis which is important for foam quality and mouthfeel. So if it was me, I'd keep the 170°F mash step and sparge with the hotter water from the HLT without waiting for it to cool. So you still shorten your brew day some. The mash off will get you better efficiency, higher quality wort, and insure you against the possibility of the hot sparge carrying over any unconverted starch. No downside there.

 

[SkunkFunkk]

@Robert65 I dont want to skip the mashout step i wanted to know if i could do it in the boil kettle instead of the mashtun

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, when I need to drop my HLT bath temperature from mashout to fly-sparge I use the hex to drop the bath temperature in a hurry by running my deep well water through it (literally takes a couple of minutes, tops).

The idea of taking some part (most?) of the first runnings to the BK and bringing the temp up to denaturing temperatures seems reasonable as long as the grain bed isn't flattened in the offing. It'd be somewhat of a hybrid fly-sparge...maybe there's a brewing term for it...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

I find that a 10 minute or so mash off is a very useful step. It will ensure the last bit of conversion, getting you a little more yield -- I usually see it get me the last couple of °P in mash density to reach 100% conversion efficiency. It's also the temperature for glycoprotein synthesis which is important for foam quality and mouthfeel. So if it was me, I'd keep the 170°F mash step and sparge with the hotter water from the HLT without waiting for it to cool. So you still shorten your brew day some. The mash off will get you better efficiency, higher quality wort, and insure you against the possibility of the hot sparge carrying over any unconverted starch. No downside there.

I thought the temp for glycoprotein synthesis was in the 160-163 range?

 

[Smellyglove]

Can you mash thicker? Or is it as thick as you want it? If you can, just add some of the mash water to the BK, bring it to a boil, and infuse it to the mash bringing up the temps fast. Or, if you can use some of the sparge water, but this would mean less sparge water. But 185 HLT vs 170 MT, sounds to me like you're leaking a lot of energy. I'd look into some insulation unless it's a hassle. Insulate hoses and MT.

 

[Robert65]

I thought the temp for glycoprotein synthesis was in the 160-163 range?

160-163 is alpha amylase. Glycoprotein synthesis may begin there, but apparently is at peak at 170. My experience anecdotally backs this up. My own program is 146F (63C) 30 min, 162F (72C) 30 min, 170F (76C) 10-15 min, with 1C/min ramps. I get 100% conversion, great yield, good fermentability, and super foam. Drop the top rest and all parameters are inferior.

 

[couchsending]

I understand that 160-163 is the alpha rest but according to Kunze it’s also optimum for glycoprotein formation. I’ll have to find the quote. I could be wrong.

 

[Smellyglove]

I understand that 160-163 is the alpha rest but according to Kunze it’s also optimum for glycoprotein formation. I’ll have to find the quote. I could be wrong.

Unless there's something I don't know and should learn. I believe you're mixing something up here. Glycoprotein = 72C.

 

[couchsending]

Unless there's something I don't know and should learn. I believe you're mixing something up here. Glycoprotein = 72C.

72c = 161.6

So 160-163 window

 

[Smellyglove]

72c = 161.6

So 160-163 window

Sorry. I must be retarded. I'll go find my helmet. Best and worst bet is that I saw "163" and for some reason only digested 63 and made it into C.

 

[Robert65]

I've seen something somewhere about about glycoprotein peaking higher. I know Kunze cites the more familiar temperature. At any rate, all acitvity peaks at the top of its range. My experience with improved foam with a 76C rest suggests this may be the case, but i could be deriving most of the benefit at 72C, I'll admit. I'm not omitting the mash off, because it does eke out that last bit of conversion and improves yield, so I may never tease it apart.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

@Robert65 I dont want to skip the mashout step i wanted to know if i could do it in the boil kettle instead of the mashtun

Since nobody seems to be actually answering your question, I'll chime in:
Yes, you can. Let's say you mashed and sparged, and whatnot but never got up as high as, say 170-ish, and you want to, you can pause there in the kettle on your way to boil.
Caveat: it's not easy to hit the temp accurately. I've tried exactly that twice, and both times I got distracted while the wort was heating and totally missed stopping at 170 by the time I got back to check on it.

 

[JaymzMF]

One of the reasons I built a smaller, separate 3-4 gallon dedicated HERMS was for quick temp changes. I recirc and maintain mash through it, and I raise temp quickly for mash out or step mash through it and I raise it again and run my sparge water through it. I feel like it gives me much more control. I do not have any experience with using a large volume HLT HERMS and don't know how long it takes to get to temps, but I've just assumed it would. Larger volume of water.

 

[Bobby_M]

Set the hlt temp to 185 after 40 minutes to begin ramping earlier. Also sparge with 185 but make sure it is slightly acidic. Run the wort in the kettle to boiling as soon as the element is covered.

 

[Bobby_M]

But which down side should I expect if i get my wort temperature to 170 by heating it with my electric elements in the boil kettle while i slowly sparge it

The fact that the bulk of your wort will sit at sacc rest temps while you sparge will make a more fermentable wort. Whether you can tell the difference in the end is a less obvious answer.

 

[isomerization]

The fact that the bulk of your wort will sit at sacc rest temps while you sparge will make a more fermentable wort. Whether you can tell the difference in the end is a less obvious answer.

How will the wort be more fermentable?

 

[Robert65]

Alpha will still be snipping away.

 

[Bobby_M]

How will the wort be more fermentable?

The purpose of a mashout is to halt enzymatic activity locking in whatever sugar profile exists i.e. mixture of glucose, maltose, maltotrios and dextrines. Long cooler mashes result in smaller sugars that are more fermentable. Shorter, warmer mashes keep some long sugars in the mix making it less fermentable. That's the simplistic answer anyway.

 

[Robert65]

The purpose of a mashout is to halt enzymatic activity locking in whatever sugar profile exists i.e. mixture of glucose, maltose, maltotrios and dextrines. Long cooler mashes result in smaller sugars that are more fermentable. Shorter, warmer mashes keep some long sugars in the mix making it less fermentable. That's the simplistic answer anyway.

Yeah, somewhat simplistic and how it's popularly understood. But in fact, the enzymes may be slowed down, but are not denatured until the boil. The more significant advantage of mash off is getting to a temperature where gelatinization of any sequestered starch is achieved and conversion is completed as amylases reach peak, manic activity at the top of their optimum range, increasing extract yield. So, as you noted earlier, even hitting this temperature in the kettle will increase fermentability as alpha is spurred into really vigorously snipping away. The longer you remain below boiling, even at mash off temperature, the more conversion and the more reduction into more fermentable, simpler, sugars.

 

[isomerization]

Yeah, somewhat simplistic and how it's popularly understood. But in fact, the enzymes may be slowed down, but are not denatured until the boil. The more significant advantage of mash off is getting to a temperature where gelatinization of any sequestered starch is achieved and conversion is completed as amylases reach peak, manic activity at the top of their optimum range, increasing extract yield. So, as you noted earlier, even hitting this temperature in the kettle will increase fermentability as alpha is spurred into really vigorously snipping away. The longer you remain below boiling, even at mash off temperature, the more conversion and the more reduction into more fermentable, simpler, sugars.

How big is this effect on the homebrew scale? Any references to support this effect?

Mainly asking as I run BIAB and have never mashed out. Don’t seem to have attenuation issues, but anecdotes haha.

 

[Bobby_M]

Its important not to mix processes in these discussions. The mash out is generally done just prior to an hour long fly sparge. In BIAB, you are achieving the enzyme denaturing in the quick run up to Boil making the sugar profile aspect of mashing out irrelevant.

The benefit of supercharging the last bit of conversion mentioned above is not tied to a specific process and its just good insurance. I hesitate to call it a mash out. In most batches I run a 152f@45-60min and then 160f@15min profile.

How big is this effect on the homebrew scale? Any references to support this effect?

Mainly asking as I run BIAB and have never mashed out. Don’t seem to have attenuation issues, but anecdotes haha.

 

[Bassman2003]

A "mash out" should still involve the grain bed imho to get all of the benefits. If the wort is just sitting in the BK it is just another temperature at that point on the way to boiling. Raising the temp of the grain bed to 170f is the purpose of a mash out or 170f rest. Seems like there is a mix up in ideas or am I missing something?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

A "mash out" should still involve the grain bed imho to get all of the benefits. If the wort is just sitting in the BK it is just another temperature at that point on the way to boiling. Raising the temp of the grain bed to 170f is the purpose of a mash out or 170f rest. Seems like there is a mix up in ideas or am I missing something?

I don’t think the grain bed is relevant. After all, by the time you get to mashout, you should have already gotten everything you want out of the grain itself and all that goodness is in solution.
Just my two cents.

 

[Bassman2003]

I can't refute because I do not know for sure. Just seems that if gravity is still being gained, the grain would still need to be involved. Also, if you desire a smoother lauter, the temp of the grain bed would need to be elevated as well. There seems to be debate about what is gained or had by this step. Is it an end or another part of the mash? I think many are saying it is another part of the mash which involves the grain. Happy to be informed though!

 

[hottpeper13]

I do a mash in a bag when making 10 gal batches. I use the BK as a grant and drain into it and recirc back into the mash tun. When there is a constant 2 gal in the BK ( it takes some valve finesse ) I turn on the induction burner and try to hold 170*. with your system I'm betting you have 2 pumps and valving to do the same, you just have to fill above the coil.