Mashed at too high a temperature

[Threetall]

So I made a pale ale, and I mashed it too high. Because I hit the OG, however, I fermented swithout thinking about it and the FG came out to 1.025.
I was using beersmith to make estimations about my mash temps.
My recipe:
Recipe: Three Rivers Pale Ale
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.22 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 7.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 44.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.2 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
18.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
8.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 63.2 %
2 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 21.1 %
1 lbs Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 5 10.5 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6 5.3 %
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 12.2 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 13.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [10.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 7.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 7.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [10.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 4.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 12 -
2.00 oz Simcoe [12.90 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [10.90 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 D Hop 14 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 12.88 qt of water at 166.9 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.34 gal water at 168.0 F

Now I am using a 70qt coleman xtreme so I changed the mash tun specific heat to 0.3 for plastic. If I can remember I thought I heated the mash in water to 167, and then let it sit. I remember checking the temp and seeing that the temp had only dropped to about 160 or so after 45 minutes. Maybe the mash in water was way hotter then 167 degrees? I'm not sure what I should change for next time.

 

[Chriso]

What kind of thermometer(s??) do you use? Assuming you poured 167*F in and got 160*F out (and those temps were accurate) then you did mash a bit high, producing a high FG and probably a very thick-bodied beer, but it should still be drinkable.

I'm wondering if your therm. might be reading low, and it could have even been 162*F or higher.

I use a cheap digital remote probe, and confirm it against a cheap digital stick-style (chef's pocket therm). When they start reading way off of each other, I pick up another $12 therm to add into my rotation of cross-checks.

 

[Threetall]

Metal thermometer, stick style. Analogue.

I do know that when I opened the cooler for a bit when I caught the error(too late), I did drop to around 155+. If I ever have this problem again, and I don't catch it at the start of the mash, is it ok to mash for longer than an hour and wait for the temp to drop?

 

[Chriso]

Others may tie me to the pyre for this, but I am of the opinion that even a cheap but potentially-inaccurate digital beats trying to read between the lines on a metal/stick therm. Some believe in using glass therm's as a backup (verifying accuracy) but I am anti-glass, I hate using it for anything, at any time. (Paranoid about cutting myself.)

You can mash much longer than an hour - even overnight - but it could depend on how long you sit at a temp of 162* or higher. Read this thread for more info better than I can explain it to ya: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/can-i-do-all-night-mash-346691/

I routinely mash for 75-90 min. simply because my sparge water either isn't ready yet - or went way over my target, and needs to cool slightly before I use it. (I weigh my hops inside while my mash goes outside on the patio.)

 

[duboman]

It's not the software, it's your thermometer, If you put 168F water into at least 10-12 lbs of grain the grain temp will drop the water temp to about 152 so your software is about correct. But none of this means anything if your actual measuring device sucks and is not calibrated to verify the proper temperature so you can make adjustments if necessary. Calibrate the one you have or get one that is better quality and more accurate, but still verify it's calibrated, even the digital ones have been proven wrong!

 

[Straight6TT]

How did you only end up with 4.25 gallons in the bottling bucket, that seems low with a 5.7 post boil volume no?

 

[Chriso]

I frequently have the same low-volume problem, but in my case, it's that I leave a lot behind in my MLT, lose some to my CFC, and I boil 6.0gal pre-boil in a 60qt wide aluminum pot that gets very, *very* good boil-off. So I frequently collect only 4.25 gal instead of 5.0. :-( I really need to fix my equipment profile so that I can stop having to buy top-up water.

 

[duboman]

I frequently have the same low-volume problem, but in my case, it's that I leave a lot behind in my MLT, lose some to my CFC, and I boil 6.0gal pre-boil in a 60qt wide aluminum pot that gets very, *very* good boil-off. So I frequently collect only 4.25 gal instead of 5.0. :-( I really need to fix my equipment profile so that I can stop having to buy top-up water.

Equipment profile is paramount to getting all your volumes correct and if you keep having to add top off water your gravities will never be correct either. You need to adjust all your losses in the profile and then your volumes will be correct.

 

[Threetall]

The 4.25 is just the default Beersmith 2 has. Also just checked my thermometer, and it's calibrated correctly. So maybe I was wrong with the temp amounts. I'll just be more careful next time. My first 2 all grain brews did not have this problem.

 

[Yooper]

Not on topic, but why the boatload of epsom salts? 8 grams is a lot, and isn't usually needed at all in brewing.

The problem with mashing above 160 is that you start denaturing the enzymes. Once they are denatured, you can mash for a week and not be able to fix the mistake. It happens relatively slowly, though, so if you can get the temp below 160 or so within 10 minutes you should be ok.

I have used a few ice cubes when my temperature was too high after stirring well, and that worked great.

 

[Threetall]

I definitely did not put 8 grams of Epsom salts in my beer, must have recorded something incorrectly into beersmith. It was more around 4, I'll have to check my beer journal. But the epsom salts are for the Mg.

 

[Yooper]

I definitely did not put 8 grams of Epsom salts in my beer, must have recorded something incorrectly into beersmith. It was more around 4, I'll have to check my beer journal. But the epsom salts are for the Mg.

You don't need added Mg, so leave it out next time. (Malt has plenty, and in a higher amount, it has a laxative effect).

If you need more sulfate, the Cas04 (gypsum) can provide that. but of course, it depends on the water you're starting with.

 

[Threetall]

Then why the heck would beersmith suggest adding Mg to match a water profile.

 

[Yooper]

Then why the heck would beersmith suggest adding Mg to match a water profile.

I have no idea! But check out the "water primer" in the brewing science forum if you want to know about some basic water chemistry.

Too much sulfate (and that looks like a LOT) is not a good thing, but it can work with certain beers. But magnesium is never needed but sometimes rarely added to "sharpen" the hops. If you don't know exactly why you're adding something, my advice is to not do it. No one ever stated a "low Mg level" as an issue in beer, but too much Mg and too much sulfate IS a problem.

I use like 5 grams of gypsum in a 10 gallon batch, so 18 grams in a 5 gallon batch makes me cringe a bit. But it really depends on your starting water chemistry, of course.

 

[Threetall]

My water is soft, and I was hardening it to accentuate the hops. The beer tastes good, just too much body.
This is actually what I added (that was an old copy of the recipe):
7 g gypsum
4 g epsom salt
2 g CaCo3

 

[iijakii]

You don't need added Mg, so leave it out next time. (Malt has plenty, and in a higher amount, it has a laxative effect).

If you need more sulfate, the Cas04 (gypsum) can provide that. but of course, it depends on the water you're starting with.

What if your water is extremely low on sulfate, but your calcium isn't too low? You're kind of forced to mix gypsum and epsom to hit high sulfate without sending your calcium through the roof, right?

 

[phoenixs4r]

blah blah blah

Your avatar is still creeping me out.

 

[captainL]

When you heated your water did you turn the flame off, stir, and let it sit for a few minutes. The temp can easily rise after flame out 5 to 10 degrees. Make sure the temp stops rising before you mash it in.

 

[Yooper]

My water is soft, and I was hardening it to accentuate the hops. The beer tastes good, just too much body.
This is actually what I added (that was an old copy of the recipe):
7 g gypsum
4 g epsom salt
2 g CaCo3

I'm glad your beer tastes good- that's the important thing.

I also would never add chalk to the mash. When you want to start messing around with water chemistry, there are some very simple beginning steps to take to ensure a proper mash pH.