Mash temp ?

[raleighwood]

Hey guys, new all grain brewer here. I completed my first all grain batch last night and I have a question and concern. I recently purchased a taylor digital thermometer from walmart to use for brewing and it crapped the bed last night. I was boiling my strike water and achieved the appropriate temp according to the thermometer. 20 mintues later I checked mash temp and it was 120 deg. I then soon realized that the therm was fried. My question is is my mah ruined from striking at 120deg. The wort came out at an unusually light color from previous experience. Is it possible that the grain is all starch and no sugar. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[IvanBrew]

There's one way to tell, that I can think of... Pull a sample and do an iodine test on it.

Other than that, it's anyone's guess. Hopefully, the thermometer crapped the bed before it gave you the 120 reading. In other words, you're fine and just don't know it. If the 120 was accurate, though, you're in trouble.

Do an iodine test. Without an accurate picture of mash temp, it won't tell you what to expect from final gravity, but at least you'll know you've got sugar.

 

[bajaedition]

the temps they give you for mashing are the temps the enzymes work best
there is a bit of variance there, I have to admit 120 is low however

do an iodine test

or, do your first dicotion

 

[raleighwood]

I used a lab grade thermometer as back up and thats how I read 120deg. The Iodine test was recommended by my local homebrew store and sure enough it turned pitch black. Im assuming it didnt convert to sugar.

 

[BansheeRider]

Wouldn't a gravity reading also tell you since hydrometers/refractometers measure sugar?

 

[TheHogue]

Wouldn't a gravity reading also tell you since hydrometers/refractometers measure sugar?

Unfortunately no, because gravity is a measure of density caused by dissolved solids in water. On a hydrometer dissolved starch would weigh the same as sugar.

That's where the Iodine Test comes in, to tell what's dissolved.

 

[IvanBrew]

the temps they give you for mashing are the temps the enzymes work best
there is a bit of variance there, I have to admit 120 is low however

do an iodine test

or, do your first dicotion

It's true that 120 is potentially a temp you'd aim for during mashing, but not for saccharification. 120 might be used in a multi-step mash for a protein rest. While you might have some minor beta-amylase activity at 120, you'd have no alpha-amylase activity at all. "Normal" saccharification temperatures would be 145 - 158...

The boil will have denatured all of the enzymes in the wort, so raising it back to saccharification temps won't do any good. You could, theoretically, buy liquid enzymes, raise the temp back to saccharification, and add them, but it'd be a science experiment.

Sadly, I think (given the positive iodine test) that you've probably scrapped this batch. Chalk it up to a learning experience and brew another

 

[bajaedition]

It's true that 120 is potentially a temp you'd aim for during mashing, but not for saccharification. 120 might be used in a multi-step mash for a protein rest. While you might have some minor beta-amylase activity at 120, you'd have no alpha-amylase activity at all. "Normal" saccharification temperatures would be 145 - 158...

The boil will have denatured all of the enzymes in the wort, so raising it back to saccharification temps won't do any good. You could, theoretically, buy liquid enzymes, raise the temp back to saccharification, and add them, but it'd be a science experiment.

Sadly, I think (given the positive iodine test) that you've probably scrapped this batch. Chalk it up to a learning experience and brew another

Have you ever tried to see what would happen at 120 degrees?

before you say it will do no good, try it
do a rest at 120 and then see how much of a conversion you get

do you think the first beer ever made, which by the way was done by accident, had a 150 degree rest?

A friend and myself did a lot of experiments with step infusions because 20 years ago everyone only did single infusions and pointed to published sources as why we were wrong doing step infusions, So we started to experiment. Found out a lot.

I suggest you get some basic chemistry supplies, a microscope and start to experiment yourself before make blanket statements.

furthermore. I can have that entire wort converted at 150 degrees after his boil with the addition of one ingredient

anyone who has studied brewing would know that, ever hear of amylase enzyme? you can pick it up quite easy and save that batch, but you call that a science experiment, as if science was bad, the entire brewing process is science, is it all a bad thing?

the guy made a mistake and now he wants to learn. he never mentions having boiled the wort, he mentions having a bad temp for his mash. I admit it is kind of late now, but if he had a decent thermometer on him at the time he could have just stepped up to 150. if he had gone to far and thought he had ruined his enzyme, he could have added some.

How do you think guys doing corn whiskey do a mash?

help him, that is the point around here

 

[kombat]

Have you ever tried to see what would happen at 120 degrees?

before you say it will do no good, try it
do a rest at 120 and then see how much of a conversion you get

None. You'd get no conversion at all.

The two enzymes of most interest to brewers are alpha amylase and beta amylase. Basically, alpha amylase produces the non-fermentable sugars that contribute body and residual sweetness to the beer, while beta amylase produces maltose, the fermentable main sugar comprising the wort.

Alpha amylase enzymes are active in the temperature range 162ºF and 167ºF. Beta amylase enzymes are active in the temperature range 140ºF and 150ºF.

120° F is at least 20 degrees too cool for either enzyme to perform any conversion.

However, your suggestion to try adding some amylase enzyme is a good one, albeit probably too late.

 

[bajaedition]

you will get conversion, just very little

 

[IvanBrew]

@bajaedition, I apologize if my post came across as obstinate, or otherwise unhelpful. It wasn't my intent. Sometimes the best thing to do is learn from a mistake and move on, which is what I was suggesting.

Not only have I heard of amylase enzyme, I actually mentioned the possibility of buying it in my post...

120 F is at the very very bottom of the temperature band for beta amylase. It's completely outside the band for alpha amylase. Even in the "optimum" temperature range, beta amylase works more slowly than alpha amylase. In other words, you are technically correct. You will get "some" conversion at 120 F, but certainly not what you'd hoped to achieve when you set out to hit a conversion temperature between 145 and 158...

I have no doubt that the OP could get his batch of wort to "convert" by raising it to 150 and adding in liquid enzymes. Keep in mind, though, this is being done on finished wort. i.e. it's been boiled, hopped, aerated, and pitched.

If the OP decides to give it a try (and I'd be the last to knock him for doing so) I think most would counsel going through a full boil again to sterilize before pitching more yeast. I'll readily admit, I have no idea what that's going to do to bitterness levels. I'd suspect that at the very least you'll drive off any flavor and aroma components and need to add more late hops to make them up. It'll probably also effect underlying IBU's.

So... Yes. You could do all of this, and I'd commend your spirit for doing so. You won't, however, likely end up with the beer you started out trying to brew, and you're going to do a lot of work getting here.

It's your choice.

If it were me, I'd raise a mournful toast to the beer gods, spend a moment in quiet contemplation, and dump the batch.


Edit: You're also right that, on re-reading, I've made an assumption that this is finished wort. If for some reason the OP didn't go through the boil yet, then raising to 150 and adding liquid enzymes is a great idea.

 

[adixon3]

None. You'd get no conversion at all.

The two enzymes of most interest to brewers are alpha amylase and beta amylase. Basically, alpha amylase produces the non-fermentable sugars that contribute body and residual sweetness to the beer, while beta amylase produces maltose, the fermentable main sugar comprising the wort.

Alpha amylase enzymes are active in the temperature range 162ºF and 167ºF. Beta amylase enzymes are active in the temperature range 140ºF and 150ºF.

120° F is at least 20 degrees too cool for either enzyme to perform any conversion.

However, your suggestion to try adding some amylase enzyme is a good one, albeit probably too late.

Beta amylase starts at 140 and begins denaturing at 149

Alpha amylase Starts at 150 and is denatured at 167