Mash temp start 5 degrees too much - low efficiency?

[pretzelb]

I was doing well with my last few batches and hit the 80% range. My current batch fell to a pre-boil reading that puts me at 67%. Grain is from the same store (NB) so I think it's something I did. My equipment is the same but my starting mash temp was 160 instead of 154 and it stayed high for a while. Could that result in my low efficiency?

I've posted issues before about trying to keep my mash temp constant so I'm trying different techniques to pre heat my MLT but this time I may have screwed up.

 

[Nateo]

You should really buy New Brewing Lager Beer, if you haven't already. It's a great resource, and I've learned a lot of tricks from it that I never heard about anywhere else.

Maybe your mash was too thin? In a thin mash the amylases are denatured very quickly above 152*. Whenever I mash for a dextrinous wort, I keep the liquor/grist ratio under 1qt/lb.

But I don't think poor conversion was the only thing factor. The "protein rest" enzymes are most active between 100-140*, and as they break down proteins they'll improve extract efficiency by exposing more starches.

Most beers will benefit from some sort of protein rest, even if you have well-modified grains. A quick rest at 131 is what I usually use.

 

[pretzelb]

Looking at similar threads that appear under my post it sounds like temp has little to do with efficiency. I have no idea what I did wrong. I am consistent with the values I enter in BeerSmith and my mash was thick. I did stir a ton this batch due to the extra heat (trying to dissipate the heat) so doughballs should not have been an issue either.

 

[OhioMurb]

Not sure if it's bad form to post to another forum, but I had the same problem and semi-solved it...

http://www.brews-bros.com/index.php/topic/24973-weird-efficiencies/page__fromsearch__1

 

[Docjowles]

Was the recipe significantly different from what you usually brew (eg., used tons of wheat or adjuncts or something)? Or did you do anything different during the sparge? So far in my limited experience, screwing around with my sparge process and temps has made the biggest difference in my efficiency.

Here is a ridiculously detailed and interesting analysis of every mash parameter and what, if any, effect it has on the mash. I found this while looking into my own efficiency problems: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

Kai posts on this site, too

 

[kanzimonson]

Sounds like you're sorta new to all grain? If this is any encouragement, I had to go through about 10 batches until I started to see an improvement in my efficiency. I don't really know why it's like this, but it just seems the more comfortable and familiar you are with your system, the more extract you get from your grains.

If I have any advice, I'd say don't be like the other worrying people on HBT and try to reinvent your system with every mash. Change little things.

If you decide to incorporate a protein rest, don't make it more than 20 minutes or so. When I was trying to improve my efficiency I tried the extra protein rest, but it didn't help much. So I extended it. And kept extending it, until I was doing a protein rest for 45 minutes. Guess what, my beers had zero head and came off as pretty thin. So I scrapped it and went with single infusion and haven't looked back.

 

[pretzelb]

I didn't change my process or equipment at all for this batch because the last 2 were great. I batch sparge with two equal amounts of water after 10 minutes of rest with a stir when the water is added. The only possible thing I did different was open the valve full instead of 1/2 as I normally do.

Reading some of the other posts I wonder if it's a factor of the grain bill. Here's some numbers from my last brews in descending order:

Type / Est OG / Efficiency into boiler
Strong Scotch Ale / 1.088 / 67.54%
Special Bitter / 1.043 / 80%
American IPA / 1.055 / 78.7%
Belgian Tripel / 1.071 / 69%
Robust Porter / 1.049 / 71.28%

 

[jmick]

Most people see a decrease in efficiency when doing big beers - the 69% you got on the tripel kinda confirms that.

I have been pretty consistent at 78-79% on normal beers, but I had 69 & 70% on a Barleywine and RIS that I did in the last couple of months.

Part of the learning process is to know what efficiency to expect - you are already starting to see a pattern.

 

[SKMO]

Sounds like you're sorta new to all grain? If this is any encouragement, I had to go through about 10 batches until I started to see an improvement in my efficiency. I don't really know why it's like this, but it just seems the more comfortable and familiar you are with your system, the more extract you get from your grains.

If I have any advice, I'd say don't be like the other worrying people on HBT and try to reinvent your system with every mash. Change little things.

Awesome advice here by Kanzi.

Way to much worrying going on. Toss in a bit more grain or keep some DME on hand if you need to bump it. Extraction efficiencies tend to evolve into bragging rights, or the concept you need a couple hundred more dollars worth of gizmos to get your fermentables.

 

[pretzelb]

Most people see a decrease in efficiency when doing big beers - the 69% you got on the tripel kinda confirms that.

I have been pretty consistent at 78-79% on normal beers, but I had 69 & 70% on a Barleywine and RIS that I did in the last couple of months.

Part of the learning process is to know what efficiency to expect - you are already starting to see a pattern.

Interesting. With all my reading I never picked up on the efficiency going down for bigger beers. But if that is true, what do you do about it?

So far I normally get recipe kits from online places that have the grain bill configured. If the kit is supposed to get an OG in the 1.080 range, and after I plug in a 67% expected efficiency into BeerSmith, what do I do to try and get that correct OG?

Since my grain is fixed the only thing I can think to do is lower the volume.

 

[pretzelb]

Way to much worrying going on. Toss in a bit more grain or keep some DME on hand if you need to bump it. Extraction efficiencies tend to evolve into bragging rights, or the concept you need a couple hundred more dollars worth of gizmos to get your fermentables.

I would normally agree but efficiency reflects your ability to hit your desired OG and that is a reflection of how well you achieved what you were hoping to achieve. If you are going for a heavy beer but you miss by too much your finaly product won't have the strength you expected or desired.

I'm not sure sure just adding grain or DME is a viable solution. I buy ready made kits so my grain is fixed. I could add DME but I can't find the calculator in BeerSmith that tells me how much to added based on volume and missing gravity points, and, I would think this should affect final taste (adding pale DME to an imperial stout for example).

I agree that fretting over numbers can be silly when overdone but it does contribute to the quality of your final product and the expense as well.