MAsh efficiency- coming up short

[J_mac]

I just brewed my 3rd and 4th all grain batches, and I a bit confused as far as my efficiency. I'm regularly coming up short on the expected OG. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.

My setup is pretty basic, box type cooler mash tun, with a copper pipe draining manifold. I batch sparge, split into two equal sparges. Mash in at 168, one hour on grain, drain off most of the water, sparge, rest 10 minutes, drain again. MAsh temp on initial 1 hour soak holding 155 degrees steady through mash in. Sparge water 168.

Todays brew was a 6.5 boil volume,Pre- Boil gravity was 1.037. First runnings were 1.043 if I remember correctly, I didnt write them down. The brew recipe( frome a reliable brewer) says OG should be around 1.059. I ran an extra 15 minutes on the boil to get it to 5.5 gallons, and still had an OG of 1.044. Recipe has 12# of grain, so I don't understand why I keep coming up short. Should I let my mash soak longer? Iodine test did not turn black, so I though that I was getting adequate conversion to sugars. My thinking, which may be wrong, is if I just keep boiling it down until I reach the desired OG, then Im goingto be short on my batch volume.

Can someone point me to the error in my ways? If Im calculating efficiency correctly I'm well under 70%. Not sure what Im doing wrong, or what I need to do differently.

 

[MagicMatt]

There could be many factors, but from what you posted my first thought was poor crush. Your efficiency will only be as good as your crush. Do you mill your own? If so what's the mill set to?

Maybe post a pic of your crushed grains, that could help determine.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Post your actual ingredients, so we can calculate your efficiency.

Like Matt said, poor crush is most likely.
But it could be a water issue, not enough stirring when sparging (poor rinsing of the grain) or something else.

 

[WakeyOz]

Poor crush, Sparge run off too fast.
over sparged, it could be a number of factors.

If your process has been exactly the same every batch then it has to be the grain crush. nothing else would give you sporadic results if using the same temps and techniques.

I also have a cooler mash tun but i use one of these http://www.midwestsupplies.com/12-boil-screen.html

I fly sparge by covering the grains with Aluminum Foil with holes punched through then pour in sparge water over 40-50mins while running off into boil kettle.

 

[doug293cz]

I have posted some suggestions for diagnosing efficiency problems here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6914382&postcount=13. In order to figure out the source(s) of your low efficiency, you need to collect the most accurate and complete information that you can for grain weights, SG and volumes at each stage of the process. Then you can follow the outline for calculating conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency. Given your low OG vs. expected, it is likely that your issues are one or both of those.

Good luck.

Brew on

 

[J_mac]

Heres my grain bill and mash/sparge info.

8.0# 2 Row Brewers Malt
1.5# 10 L Munich Malt
1.5# Caramel Malt 40 L
1# Caramel Malt 80 L


Strike water 4.25 gal @168 degrees Mash Temp 155 (confirmed, had to add .25 gal to bump temp to 155)
MAsh for 60 min, stirred regularly through mashing

Lauter 2.5 gallons first running
Sparge with 2.06 gal, @ 168 degrees, 10 minutes, lauter.
Sparge with another 2.06 gallons @ 168x 10 minutes, lauter.

Extracted total of 6.5 gallons, final lauter ran until it stopped flowing. No stuck sparge, frain absorbtion/dead space made up difference. I usually have about a half gallon of liquid in bottom of cooler when done. Stirred in sparge water well with each sparge, and stirred during 10 minute hold time. Did not stir once lautering started.

As far as grain crush goes, I bought this grain from a different brew supplier, and I was suspicious the grind was a bit course. My usual supply shop Ive had very good grind size. While that may have been a factor with this batch, the batch the day before was from my usual supplier, and size was perfect. And it still came out a little low, although not to the level of the 2nd batch. They were 2 different beers though, the 1st was only 8# of grains.

 

[aprichman]

One thing that seems off to me is your mash temperature holding steady at 155F for the full hour with constant stirring. You should definitely be losing some temperature even if you only opened it once or twice to stir. How are you monitoring temperature? Is your thermometer calibrated? Your actual temps might be higher than you think (or certain spots in your mashtun) which could lead to low efficiency.

 

[J_mac]

Im using a floating thermometer. No, its not calibrated.

 

[MagicMatt]

Everything you posted looks correct, though I do not batch sparge so I cannot comment on that aspect. Also, I never stir during the mash (after dough-in and before mash-out), and I routinely get 75-80% efficiency. Not sure if that could be an issue, as what aprichman said is generally true: if you stir, expect to lose 1-2°F each time. If you're saying it was constant at 155°F with routine stirring, I'd say something is amiss there.

 

[J_mac]

OK, re-reading comments, a question pops up. With BAtch sparging, overf how long a period of time should I be taking to drain off my wort? I open it slowly to set the grain bed, and run it off over 5-10 minutes, Am I going too fast? The wort I recirculate, I pour back in slowly while its still draining, so not to stir up grain bed. Should I be draining it off slower?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

OK, re-reading comments, a question pops up. With BAtch sparging, overf how long a period of time should I be taking to drain off my wort? I open it slowly to set the grain bed, and run it off over 5-10 minutes, Am I going too fast? The wort I recirculate, I pour back in slowly while its still draining, so not to stir up grain bed. Should I be draining it off slower?

No problem with this. Run off as fast as you can with batch sparging. It's different to fly sparging where you have to go slow to allow the sparge water to rinse the grain as it runs through. I don't batch sparge anymore, but when I did I'd give it a really good stir at the end of the mash, let it sit for 5 mins, drain (quickly), add half my sparge water, stir, sit for 5 mins, stir, sit for 5 mins, drain then repeat the sparge a second time. I was getting mash efficiency of about 80% (not total efficiency).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Heres my grain bill and mash/sparge info.

8.0# 2 Row Brewers Malt
1.5# 10 L Munich Malt
1.5# Caramel Malt 40 L
1# Caramel Malt 80 L


Strike water 4.25 gal @168 degrees Mash Temp 155 (confirmed, had to add .25 gal to bump temp to 155)
MAsh for 60 min, stirred regularly through mashing

Lauter 2.5 gallons first running
Sparge with 2.06 gal, @ 168 degrees, 10 minutes, lauter.
Sparge with another 2.06 gallons @ 168x 10 minutes, lauter.

Extracted total of 6.5 gallons, final lauter ran until it stopped flowing. No stuck sparge, frain absorbtion/dead space made up difference. I usually have about a half gallon of liquid in bottom of cooler when done. Stirred in sparge water well with each sparge, and stirred during 10 minute hold time. Did not stir once lautering started.

As far as grain crush goes, I bought this grain from a different brew supplier, and I was suspicious the grind was a bit course. My usual supply shop Ive had very good grind size. While that may have been a factor with this batch, the batch the day before was from my usual supplier, and size was perfect. And it still came out a little low, although not to the level of the 2nd batch. They were 2 different beers though, the 1st was only 8# of grains.

OK. For that grain bill, getting 5.5gal (I used 21L 'cos I use metric) at 1.044OG, your efficiency is about 57%, which is very poor.

What you should do:
1. Calibrate your thermometer. (Google it if you're not sure how).
2. Post a picture of the grain crush for your next brew. If it's ok then....
3. Try brewing with RO water and add salts (a copy of your water report will be very handy to rule water issues out; post your recipe and ask for help with salt additions using RO water) AND do an iodine test at the end of the mash.


BTW, that's quite a lot of crystal (just over 20%). Most brewers try to keep within 5% to 10% unless deliberately aiming for a sweet style.

 

[hottpeper13]

IMO if you can run off the first and second runnings at full open(1/2" valve) your grain is too course. I open mine ~1/4 any more and I get stuck,and i'm getting anywhere from 80 to 86% depending on what base grain is used.

 

[J_mac]

Thanks to everyone for the input. Ive got 2 batches bubbling right now, so it will be a few weeks before I brew again, but in the meantime I will me getting a better thermometer for sure.

As for my brew water, I had a water test done on my home water ,and its pretty hard. SO Ive been using store bought spring water. I havent gotten too deep into the water chemistry thing, Ive read up on it and frankly its pretty overwhelming at this point. Yes, I know it makes a difference, but chemistry isnt my strong point. Looking at the report on my home water (well water ) I havent a clue where to start with it. Ive had several others tell me using the store bought spring water works just fine.

I'll adjust a few things as I go forward as see how it turns out. MEanwhile, I wait for my current offerings to do their magic and enjoy the results.

 

[olotti]

This may sound dumb but what do you use to stir the mash with. I started my first few batches with the plastic kit paddle and it sucked I noticed an immediate jump in efficiency when I bought a true mash paddle. It sounds simple but it really helped to mix the mash and not leave any dough balls and it helps when stirring the sparge water in to really rinse the grain. You could also try mashing with a higher qt/lb ratio your last batch was 1.4qts/lb I believe which is fine I was doing 1.33qt/lb and getting great conversion and efficiency but it's just a thought.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Be careful with spring water - some of it is quite hard (the mineral content should be listed on it). RO or distilled water (you might need to add some salts) are often a better option.

 

[liquidlunch]

I have a question. I have never calculated my efficiency before. But my last beer I hit all the numbers in my recipe and I put the info in Brewers friend calculator and it said I was only at 60%. My software is set at 70% am I missing something or was it my recipe?

 

[doug293cz]

I have a question. I have never calculated my efficiency before. But my last beer I hit all the numbers in my recipe and I put the info in Brewers friend calculator and it said I was only at 60%. My software is set at 70% am I missing something or was it my recipe?

No way we can answer that unless you list your recipe, all volume measurements, and all SG measurements. One possible answer is your software and BrewersFriend are using different efficiency definitions (e.g. brewhouse efficiency vs. mash efficiency.)

Brew on

 

[liquidlunch]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1434648012.058463.jpg
Recipe.

 

[doug293cz]

View attachment 285295
Recipe.

Ok, now we need the following:

• Strike water volume
• Measured first runnings SG (plus temp of wort when measured, and how measured)
• Measured pre-boil volume
• Measured pre-boil SG (plus temp of wort when measured, and how measured)
• Measured post-boil volume
• Measured post-boil SG - your measured OG (plus temp of wort when measured, and how measured)
• Measured volume to fermenter

We need actual measurements, not predicted values.

Brew on

 

[liquidlunch]

I will give you that when I get home. But why don't I have to plug that info in in the Brewers calculator? It asks for the grain the grain amounts and the gravity. Sorry if I'm missing something

 

[doug293cz]

I will give you that when I get home. But why don't I have to plug that info in in the Brewers calculator? It asks for the grain the grain amounts and the gravity. Sorry if I'm missing something

It's not possible to calculate efficiency without volumes. The calculator you are using may be assuming that your target batch size is your actual batch size, but this is often not the case. The best way to calculate mash efficiency is to use the grain bill, measured pre-boil gravity, and measured pre-boil volume. To calculate conversion efficiency, you need to know the grain bill, measured first runnings gravity, and strike water (plus any other pre run off water) volume. Lauter efficiency is calculated from mash efficiency and conversion efficiency. If you are trying to diagnose efficiency problems you need to know if your problems are with conversion, lauter, or post-boil losses. For more info, see my post here.

Brew on

 

[liquidlunch]

Is there a way to know when the lauter is complete by looking at it. I just go by the recipe and that may be my problem. I noticed the top of my lauter was getting those soap looking bubbles on right before I transferred to boil kettle. I know that's a sign that conversion is taking place. I'm wondering if the conversion is taking longer in my system and I'm transferring too soon. Is that possible?

 

[doug293cz]

Is there a way to know when the lauter is complete by looking at it. I just go by the recipe and that may be my problem. I noticed the top of my lauter was getting those soap looking bubbles on right before I transferred to boil kettle. I know that's a sign that conversion is taking place. I'm wondering if the conversion is taking longer in my system and I'm transferring too soon. Is that possible?

Are you asking if there is a way to know when starch to sugar conversion is complete? Lauter is complete when run off is complete. For batch sparge or no sparge, lauter is complete when the MLT is empty. For fly sparge, lauter is complete when you have reached your target pre-boil volume, or your run off gravity has reached your lower acceptable limit (usually in the range 1.008 - 1.010.)

For conversion completion, an iodine test will tell you if the wort is free of starch, but as normally conducted won't tell you if there is starch remaining in the grain. To test for residual starch in the grain, you must crush a mashed grain sample in something like a mortar and pestle, and test that with iodine. Another way to check conversion progress is to calculate the maximum possible wort SG for your grain bill and strike volume, and then compare the actual wort SG against the maximum possible.

Brew on

 

[liquidlunch]

Yes sorry that is what I was asking. Thanks

 

[liquidlunch]

It's not possible to calculate efficiency without volumes. The calculator you are using may be assuming that your target batch size is your actual batch size, but this is often not the case. The best way to calculate mash efficiency is to use the grain bill, measured pre-boil gravity, and measured pre-boil volume. To calculate conversion efficiency, you need to know the grain bill, measured first runnings gravity, and strike water (plus any other pre run off water) volume. Lauter efficiency is calculated from mash efficiency and conversion efficiency. If you are trying to diagnose efficiency problems you need to know if your problems are with conversion, lauter, or post-boil losses. For more info, see my post here.

Brew on

I just brewed this weekend and came up with 74% efficiency. I was not using accurate volumes when I was calculating it before. Thanks