Mash draining rate

[joshrosborne]

Hi all,

After 3 years and 20-something extract plus steeping grain batches,I decided to make the AG plunge after moving into our new house this spring. I decided to do a batch I've done before in extract form, a Nelson Sauvin-finished saison.

9lbs Pilsner
2lbs Pale Wheat
1oz Saaz 90 minutes
.5oz Nelson Sauvin 5 minutes
.5oz Nelson Sauvin dry hop
Wyeast 3711

Quick question: how long does it take for you all to drain your mash tun after mashing and after batch sparging? It seemed to take forever, but I may have been being too anal about making sure the wort was running clear, so I kept the flow rate to like a trickle. Some grain particles got into the wort, but I guess it couldn't be helped. Should there be no grain particles coming through when draining or, when you pinch the tube and see small flecks, is that inevitable?

Overall, though, things went pretty decently for my first time. I undershot my pre-boil volume by about a half gallon (I think the grain absorbed more than Beersmith's default setting), but I did better than my estimated efficiency (75% vs the 65% I guesstimated), so I added some extra water to the boil and all went dandy. It was somewhat stressful making these fixes on the fly, but now that I have a batch through the system and know what I'm doing a little better, I will probably be more relaxed going forward.

 

[Francus]

I usually shoot for draining 1 gallon every 5 minutes during sparge. Shooting for and actually getting is another thing, but I get close

 

[JustLooking]

When batch sparging drain as fast as your system will allow without getting stuck. Somewhere around 10 minutes for a five gallon batch is ball park. If you're getting husks through to your kettle, you have a problem with your system. What are you using? False bottom, stainless braid .....?

 

[Howhownow]

Not to hijack this conversation, but I have seen some very conflicting reports on the ideal batch sparge drain rate. I know Palmer (and many others) say to take it slow, maybe 1qt/min. I have also seen lots of folks say to go as fast as possible.
I have always gone fairly slowly, as it seems like the conservative method, but am I A) definitely wasting my time or B) actually causing detriment to my effeciency, etc.?

 

[joshrosborne]

When batch sparging drain as fast as your system will allow without getting stuck. Somewhere around 10 minutes for a five gallon batch is ball park. If you're getting husks through to your kettle, you have a problem with your system. What are you using? False bottom, stainless braid .....?

I use this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ISY2DC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Alot wasn't getting through, just some. Looks like small particles; way smaller than the normal size of the grind.

 

[JustLooking]

I have always gone fairly slowly, as it seems like the conservative method, but am I A) definitely wasting my time or B) actually causing detriment to my effeciency, etc.?

Yes, you are wasting your time, but it won't hurt your efficiency. Your starches should be fully converted before you start to drain your tun. It's not like a continuous sparge where your are trying to rinse the grains of the sugar. At the end of the mash, you stir really well to get the sugars suspended in the liquid and then drain as quickly as possible. There is absolutely no reason to drain slow.

 

[JustLooking]

Alot wasn't getting through, just some. Looks like small particles; way smaller than the normal size of the grind.

That screen should do the job as long as your grain wasn't crushed too fine. The husks should be intact. If it's just a small amount getting through, I wouldn't worry. It shouldn't be necessary, but consider a hand full of rice hulls in your mash to aid in filtering.

 

[stpug]

I batch sparge in three steps and each running of about 2.25 gallons takes under 5 minutes each; so I get close to half a gallon a minute or thereabouts. It's not something I usually time or am worried about rate of flow; I just don't want to compact the grainbed and stick the sparge. This would be usual for my all-barely grists. I recently did a 50% wheat grist with hulls and my first runnings were MUCH slower (maybe 15 minutes to get all of them), but the follow-up runnings lautered much quicker. HTH!

 

[rlmiller10]

I would not worry about a little grain fines. Before building a mash tun I was doing BIAB and getting a lot more bits of grain via that method. You get several additional chances to leave any bits of grain behind later. You can leave it in the kettle after the boil if it settles out, or if you run the wort through a filter as you transfer from kettle to fermenter.

That said, the primary filter in a mash tun is the grain bed itself. I have found that after running the initial half gallon to a gallon into a pitcher (which I dump back into the tun to be filtered through the grain bed again) during which time the grain bed settles in, the rest of the run off is almost free of specs but not clear due to proteins and such. Once the grain bed is set it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference how fast I drain, there is little change in clarity.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not to hijack this conversation, but I have seen some very conflicting reports on the ideal batch sparge drain rate. I know Palmer (and many others) say to take it slow, maybe 1qt/min. I have also seen lots of folks say to go as fast as possible.
I have always gone fairly slowly, as it seems like the conservative method, but am I A) definitely wasting my time or B) actually causing detriment to my effeciency, etc.?

Any conflicts are based on either a misunderstanding of how batch sparging works or simply stating a slower sparge rate with respect to fly sparging without being clear about the sparging method. A lot of people learned how to brew by fly sparging and that's all they ever knew. Palmer's mistake is talking about fly sparging without saying so. 1qt/min is a fly sparging rate and has nothing to do with batch sparging.

 

[flanken]

I've been really confused about this as well...

I went for a RIS for my first AG batch... 24 lbs of grain, batch sparged. My efficiency was horrible, which I attributed to draining the MLT way too quick. I ended up with a super bitter black ale I'm going to try to pass off as a black IPA, assuming I can stomach it.

I searched and searched, why is my efficiency so low?

Not only does Palmer say it, I found this article on BeerSmith from 2008 which had me convinced that was my problem:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/07/04/5-ways-to-improve-your-all-grain-beer-efficiency/

"Most beginners attempt to sparge their mash much too fast. Sparging too quickly leaves insufficient time for the hot water to extract the sugars in the grain bed. Limit the flow out of your mash tun to just above a trickle. It should take 30-50 minutes to fully sparge a 5 gallon all grain batch (about 6 gallons of wort)."

I tried re-doing the recipe and again last week, this time I timed my drain rate and made it at or below 1 qt / minute or slower. It was a little better, but still my efficiency was way off.

So, I can attest first-hand it's a waste of time and was not the root cuase of my efficiency problem. I'm pretty sure it was temp related... So I have a new present from ThermoWorks shipping this week

 

[Bobby_M]

I've been really confused about this as well...

I went for a RIS for my first AG batch... 24 lbs of grain, batch sparged. My efficiency was horrible, which I attributed to draining the MLT way too quick. I ended up with a super bitter black ale I'm going to try to pass off as a black IPA, assuming I can stomach it.

I searched and searched, why is my efficiency so low?

Not only does Palmer say it, I found this article on BeerSmith from 2008 which had me convinced that was my problem:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/07/04/5-ways-to-improve-your-all-grain-beer-efficiency/

"Most beginners attempt to sparge their mash much too fast. Sparging too quickly leaves insufficient time for the hot water to extract the sugars in the grain bed. Limit the flow out of your mash tun to just above a trickle. It should take 30-50 minutes to fully sparge a 5 gallon all grain batch (about 6 gallons of wort)."

I tried re-doing the recipe and again last week, this time I timed my drain rate and made it at or below 1 qt / minute or slower. It was a little better, but still my efficiency was way off.

So, I can attest first-hand it's a waste of time and was not the root cuase of my efficiency problem. I'm pretty sure it was temp related... So I have a new present from ThermoWorks shipping this week

That article is written from the perspective of a fly sparger. The biggest mistake is not explaining in detail that the tips are mostly applicable only to fly sparging. I understand why this is so confusing to beginners.

PS: A RIS is not the first place I would have started. How about a lower gravity beer to get it sorted out?

 

[kh54s10]

Very high gravity beers are often difficult to get as good efficiency as lower ones. When I measure out my grain for a high gravity batch I always err on the heavy side.

I think what you are missing is that article is describing a FLY SPARGE.

I start the sparge slowly to set the grain bed as a filter, then open the valve all the way.
I heat the sparge to 168F or so, I don't feel the temperature is critical.
After making some adjustments to my equipment profile in Beersmith to meet what I actually achieve, my numbers are usually quite close.

If you are new to all grain it will probably take a few brews to dial in your system and procedures.

 

[doug293cz]

I've been really confused about this as well...

I went for a RIS for my first AG batch... 24 lbs of grain, batch sparged. My efficiency was horrible, which I attributed to draining the MLT way too quick. I ended up with a super bitter black ale I'm going to try to pass off as a black IPA, assuming I can stomach it.

I searched and searched, why is my efficiency so low?

Not only does Palmer say it, I found this article on BeerSmith from 2008 which had me convinced that was my problem:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/07/04/5-ways-to-improve-your-all-grain-beer-efficiency/

"Most beginners attempt to sparge their mash much too fast. Sparging too quickly leaves insufficient time for the hot water to extract the sugars in the grain bed. Limit the flow out of your mash tun to just above a trickle. It should take 30-50 minutes to fully sparge a 5 gallon all grain batch (about 6 gallons of wort)."

I tried re-doing the recipe and again last week, this time I timed my drain rate and made it at or below 1 qt / minute or slower. It was a little better, but still my efficiency was way off.

So, I can attest first-hand it's a waste of time and was not the root cuase of my efficiency problem. I'm pretty sure it was temp related... So I have a new present from ThermoWorks shipping this week

Lauter efficiency drops off dramatically as grain bill size increases. Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, so mash efficiency will track lauter efficiency at constant conversion efficiency. The following chart shows how lauter efficiency varies with grain bill, no-sparge vs. equal runnings single batch sparge, and various grain absorption rates, for a constant 6.7 gal pre-boil volume:



For a traditional MLT, your grain absorption rate will be about 0.12 gal/lb, which is represented by the bottom curve for both the no-sparge and single sparge cases. With a 12 lb grain bill, your maximum possible lauter (and mash) efficiency is about 85%, but with a 24 lb bill, your max efficiency is about 69%. That's a 16 percentage point difference.

It turns out that for different pre-boil volumes, the max possible lauter efficiency depends on the grain bill weight to pre-boil volume ratio. To use the following chart, just divide your grain bill weight (in lb) by your pre-boil volume (in gal) and use the result to find the correct position on the X-axis.



Another possible hit to your efficiency with your RIS is lower conversion efficiency. The larger grain bill will result in a thicker mash, and thicker mashes have a slower conversion rate (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness.) So, you may need a longer mash to get the same conversion efficiency when doing thicker mashes.

Brew on

 

[Denny]

I usually shoot for draining 1 gallon every 5 minutes during sparge. Shooting for and actually getting is another thing, but I get close

That's very slow for a batch sparge.

In batch sparging you can runoff as quickly as your system allows. I collect 7.5-8 gal. of wort for a 5 .5 gal. batch. From the time I start the mash vorlauf and runoff, through stirring in the sparge water, vorlauf again, and sparge runoff takes me a total of 15 min. About maybe 5 min. of that is the sparge runoff.

 

[Denny]

The main cause of low efficiency is a poor crush. Crush til you're scared.

 

[flanken]

That article is written from the perspective of a fly sparger. The biggest mistake is not explaining in detail that the tips are mostly applicable only to fly sparging. I understand why this is so confusing to beginners.

PS: A RIS is not the first place I would have started. How about a lower gravity beer to get it sorted out?

Yup I've been thinking the same thing... Nothing like diving in head first though right?

My plan is lower gravity with a written out brew-day process I've been writing up based on my mess ups and the great info on the forum here.

 

[flanken]

That article is written from the perspective of a fly sparger. The biggest mistake is not explaining in detail that the tips are mostly applicable only to fly sparging. I understand why this is so confusing to beginners.

PS: A RIS is not the first place I would have started. How about a lower gravity beer to get it sorted out?

Yup I've been thinking the same thing... Nothing like diving in head first though right?

My plan for my next brew is lower gravity with my newly written out brew-day process I've been working on, based on my mess ups and the great info on the forum here.

 

[flanken]

Sorry for the double-reply... was getting a goofy error on my iPhone using the HomeBrewTalk app, looked like I hadn't replied yet...?

Maybe another topic for another thread

 

[flanken]

The main cause of low efficiency is a poor crush. Crush til you're scared.

I buy my grain from Adventures in Homebrewing, it's a 30 minute drive from my house, and they crush it for me... should I be specifying how much they crush? Cause I haven't been...

 

[mongoose33]

The time spent can be mitigated by starting the boil with the first runnings, and then adding second runnings as you go. It takes maybe...7 or 8 minutes I suppose to drain the mash, then somewhat longer to get the sparge out, because I don't wait until it's bone dry before adding the sparge water.

It may take 20 minutes or so to completely drain the sparge water, but toward the end it doesn't matter much as it's just a tiny trickle at best. And yes, I tilt the mash tun to facilitate draining.

 

[Denny]

I buy my grain from Adventures in Homebrewing, it's a 30 minute drive from my house, and they crush it for me... should I be specifying how much they crush? Cause I haven't been...

Ask them to run it through the mill twice.