Mash and Sparge water amounts

[briggssteel]

Hey all. I had a question regarding mash/sparge water ratios. I currently use a calculator that I really like because I end up with about the right amount of water going into boil, so it's working for me. I'm doing a hefe with 11.4 pounds of grain and 6 total gallons. I input a mash ratio of 1.33 which gives me 3.79 for the mash and 4.9 for the sparge. If I put in a mash ratio of 1.5 it gives me 4.24 gallons for the mash and 4.40 gallons for the sparge. I've heard plenty of people say that the mash and sparge water amounts should be the same, but I don't completely understand why. My question is, is it more important to have a more balanced mash ratio like 1.33, or is a thinner mash worth it if you get equal amounts of mash and sparge water? Thanks in advance.

 

[stpug]

From a finished beer standpoint, the difference would be imperceptible. From a lautering standpoint, the thinner mash might runoff easier but, then again, you may not notice the difference. The difference of 1:1 and 2:1 ratios would be much more noticeable, but your ratios are basically in the same ballpark.

 

[SpeedYellow]

... I've heard plenty of people say that the mash and sparge water amounts should be the same, but I don't completely understand why. ...

I don't think that's a rule in brewing. I've never heard it, and it makes no sense. If the goal is to maximize efficiency, then I can easily foresee a situation where following this rule would lead you to use excessive mash water (like over 2 qt/lb) when that water would be better used as sparge water to extract sugars.

My advice is to just stick to a water-to-grist ratio you like, like 1.2 or 1.5 qts per pound or whatever. There's some evidence that higher ratios give better efficiency, but obviously at some point your efficiency drops because you start stealing away your sparge water.

 

[acidrain]

I assume this is for batch sparge?
I only recently started to understand the concept of 1:1 mash/sparge. Beersmith gives additions, but don't really go into when and why. Here is what they mean...
Taken from a beermith recipe:
Total grain amount is 13 lb 11 oz
Mash with 17.11 qrts (4.36 gal)
Sparge with two steps 2 gal and 6.64 gal

That means after the mash and before draining, add the two gallons then drain.
Add the 6.64 gallons and drain.
That is pretty close to 1:1 ratio.
There are a couple of reasons for this...
The mash ratio of 1.25 qrt / lb is needed for correct PH and maximum conversion efficiency.
Adding 2 gallons at the end thins the mash for better draining, and uses some of the sparge water needed to make up the pre-boil volume.
Using less 2nd running sparge water reduces the PH of that run.

To dial that in even closer, I don't pay any attention to the final addition that BS says is needed. Instead, I'll add the two gallons and drain the 1st running, measure the amount collected, then calculate how much more sparge water is needed to make up my pre-boil volume (you need to know your boil-off rate) and use that as my final sparge volume.
Make sense?

 

[fmr_army]

I don't really understand the reasoning behind having equal mash and sparge volumes. Denny (of DennyBrew) is a big proponent, so maybe he'll chime in.

I do a similar deal to what acidrain (above) does, but less scientifically. I usually figure out about how much wort I want to start with (because I generally know how much that will mean I end up with), and add about a quart per pound of grain for absorbtion. Then, depending on whether I have additional room for heating water, I often will add another gallon or two for sparging, to get every last little bit of sugary goodness out of the mash tun.

It's not uncommon for me to do two sparges, and occasionally I do a third. Note that I acidify my sparge water with some lactic acid (one of these days I'll get phosphoric, but lactic is what I have) and bring it almost to a boil. I've never had an astringency issue.

 

[JustLooking]

The mash ratio of 1.25 qrt / lb is needed for correct PH and maximum conversion efficiency.

This statement is incorrect. Anywhere from 1-2 qts/lb should give you a pH that will allow for proper conversion. But it depends on the water you're starting with. And pH aside, to a point, a thinner mash will give you better conversion efficiency.

 

[acidrain]

This statement is incorrect. Anywhere from 1-2 qts/lb should give you a pH that will allow for proper conversion. But it depends on the water you're starting with. And pH aside, to a point, a thinner mash will give you better conversion efficiency.

What has this got to do with a 1:1 mash sparge explanation?
What do YOU think 1:1 mash sparge means?

 

[JustLooking]

What do YOU think 1:1 mash sparge means?

Dunno. I've heard 1:1 mash thickness, but from what I can find "1:1 mash sparge" is a term you just made up. My guess would be you're going for a single sparge with two equal volume runnings. If you have a link to that term being used, please share. I'd like to read it. Brewing is a learning process for me.

What has this got to do with a 1:1 mash sparge explanation?

It means there's seldom the need to top off the tun before the first runnings unless you're going for mash-out temperature. Better to start with an original mash thickness that will give you close to two equal runnings. And besides, mash-out when batch sparging is unnecessary.

Adjust your panties. The statement of yours that I quoted is wrong. Suck it up and admit it.

 

[acidrain]

Dunno. I've heard 1:1 mash thickness, but from what I can find "1:1 mash sparge" is a term you just made up. My guess would be you're going for a single sparge with two equal volume runnings. If you have a link to that term being used, please share. I'd like to read it. Brewing is a learning process for me.

It means there's seldom the need to top off the tun before the first runnings unless you're going for mash-out temperature. Better to start with an original mash thickness that will give you close to two equal runnings. And besides, mash-out when batch sparging is unnecessary.

Adjust your panties. The statement of yours that I quoted is wrong. Suck it up and admit it.

Really? You're gonna disagree that 1.25 lbs per qrt. is wrong?
1:1 mash sparge is made up?
You can use whatever mash thickness you want, but this is taken from the Deenybrew site:

Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

You should read it: http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

 

[SpeedYellow]

Really? You're gonna disagree that 1.25 lbs per qrt. is wrong?

I think he's just saying (and I agree with him) that 1.25 qt per lb is not the efficiency-maximizing value like you claim. In some cases it may be, but it depends on several factors.

And how did pH enter this discussion? It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not two equal runnings will maximize efficiency.


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[JustLooking]

You're gonna disagree that 1.25 lbs per qrt. is wrong?

Never said that a mash ratio of 1.25 qts/lb was wrong. I said your statement that, "The mash thickness of 1.25 qts / lb is needed for correct PH and maximum conversion efficiency." is wrong. I said that you should have a pH that would convert you starches with any ratio from 1 to 2 qts/lb, but that it depends on your starting water chemistry. And that a thinner ratio can give you better conversion efficiency.

Really? 1:1 mash sparge is made up?

I also asked for a link to someone else using the term "1:1 mash sparge." I've never heard it used before and would like see it used in another context.

this is taken from the Deenybrew

I'm pretty certain that Denny would agree that in the example you could just as well mash in with 4.5 gallons for a mash thickness of 1.8 qts/lb and get two runnings of 3.5 gallons and maybe get better mash efficiency. Denny, are you listening? What do you think?

 

[JustLooking]

And how did pH enter this discussion? It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not two equal runnings will maximize efficiency

Hey Speedy. Two equal runnings would only be a problem if it gave you a mash ratio of much over 2 qts/lb. At that point you may or may not have a problem with pH that would effect conversion. Checking the pH would be the only way to tell. It depends on your water and if you adjusted it for the thinner mash thickness before starting.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Hey Speedy. Two equal runnings would only be a problem if it gave you a mash ratio of much over 2 qts/lb. At that point you may or may not have a problem with pH that would effect conversion. Checking the pH would be the only way to tell. I depends on your water and if you adjusted it for the thinner mash thickness before starting.

Yeah, my point was pH is like temperature- you have a target and you adjust it if needed. So here you set your water plan and if it calls for acidifying your mash and/or sparge water, then you do it. You don't set up your water plan based on pH targets.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[JustLooking]

Yep. We're on the same page.

 

[briggssteel]

I understand the concept of adding more after mash to get half the amount. Does anyone actually know the benefit to doing equal parts? If it's only for efficiency then I don't really care because I'm getting 73% as is. Is there another benefit to doing it that way?

 

[stpug]

I understand the concept of adding more after mash to get half the amount. Does anyone actually know the benefit to doing equal parts? If it's only for efficiency then I don't really care because I'm getting 73% as is. Is there another benefit to doing it that way?

If you're space-limited, then topping up your MLT before draining your runnings means that you might only have to sparge one more time because it can all fit. Otherwise, there is no incredible benefit to equal volume runnings.

I would recommend you decide on a process that you like; that works for your system; that produces the outcome you expect; and roll with it. The your process work around you, not the other way around.