Maris Help

[65C]

I live smack in the middle of Maris Otter country - so it's my base and I'm not going to change that

I think I've got my darks sorted now - using some Carafa III or Choc etc. those are coming out just fine

but I need a bit of help going the other way - I'm finding MO overpowering in lighter brews - nutty/malty/dark - usually using approx 5KG MO/23L

I've brewed a 4KG MO today to see how that impacts - but from what I've read I think I'm going to need to add some pils or something to reduce the malty flavour on lighter beers

I've used a bit of wheat and rye before but it has always been in combo with Crystal so I don't know what impact those of had in isolation - and the beers came out sweet - which is worst possible scenario for me

any pointers appreciated - I'm basically looking to lighten the MO and maybe add a bit of head - but don't want to sweeten anything in the process

next brew I'm looking for a suggestion like 70% MO, 25% X to give a clearer taste, 5% Y to give some head

thanks

 

[stonebrewer]

Standard 2-row or Pils at 25-30%; carapils for head.

 

[65C]

much appreciated - would 5% carapils be enough?

 

[Beernik]

Marris has such a distinctive flavor. Your fundamental problem is: if you use Marris in everything, everything will taste like Marris. Darker beers, you can hide some of it behind roasted malts. Lighter flavored beers won't let you hide it.

You can try 25% Pale or Pilsen. I think Victory, Biscuit, and Munich might accentuate the Marris instead of hiding it.

For head retention, I like torrified wheat. The downside of Carapils is it can leave residual sweetness due to its unfermentability.

 

[65C]

ah, I did a brew a couple of months back with a very small amount of torrified and it did have good head

I appreciate Maris is always going to have a taste I'm just trying to dilute it a bit in the lighter ales - I've got to support the local farmers so I'm okay with a compromise

it torrified at 5% okay?, also is it not going to make it more malty?

thanks

 

[Wayne1]

Which malster do you use? Crisp, Simpsons and Munton all offer an "Extra Pale Maris Otter" suitable for brewing Pilsners and Golden Ales.

The big toastiness of standard Maris Otter come from the malting and kilning.

You can also try blending with wheat, rice or corn to reduce the body, but you will still get the toast coming through with standard Maris Otter.

 

[65C]

it's Crisp - I'm a mile away from them - we used to live across the road - you could smell it on an evening

 

[Beernik]

ah, I did a brew a couple of months back with a very small amount of torrified and it did have good head

I appreciate Maris is always going to have a taste I'm just trying to dilute it a bit in the lighter ales - I've got to support the local farmers so I'm okay with a compromise

it torrified at 5% okay?, also is it not going to make it more malty?

thanks

Torrified wheat or barley at 5% to 10% is typical as an aid to head retention. At 5%, I doubt you'd notice the flavor of wheat. It also won't end up as malty or sweet because it's as fermentable as the MO. It just doesn't have its own diastic power because of the gelatinization process. MO has enough diastic power to convert the starches.

CaraPils and dexterin malts are completely unfermentable. Those would be more risky for leaving malty or sweet flavors unless you adjusted your mash temp or added sugar to compensate.


My process: if I'm doing "normal strength" beers (+5%), I go with 2% to 5% torrified wheat. If I'm doing smaller beers, I use CaraPils to improve head retention & mouthfeel and compensate by dropping the mash temp by 2F to 5F.

 

[65C]

thanks for that - I'll try the 5% torrified in next brew with 30% pils and see what comes out - I've been trying to do a golden ale but it's been coming out too malty - good beer - but I just want a batch of old style golden without too much malt and simple British hops

 

[stonebrewer]

Torrified wheat or barley at 5% to 10% is typical as an aid to head retention. At 5%, I doubt you'd notice the flavor of wheat. It also won't end up as malty or sweet because it's as fermentable as the MO. It just doesn't have its own diastic power because of the gelatinization process. MO has enough diastic power to convert the starches.

CaraPils and dexterin malts are completely unfermentable. Those would be more risky for leaving malty or sweet flavors unless you adjusted your mash temp or added sugar to compensate.


My process: if I'm doing "normal strength" beers (+5%), I go with 2% to 5% torrified wheat. If I'm doing smaller beers, I use CaraPils to improve head retention & mouthfeel and compensate by dropping the mash temp by 2F to 5F.

I have used Carapils for many years and never noticed any undue sweetness, but you are right it leaves unfermentables in the wort which aids mouth feel and head retention. I actually mash quite a few beers at 154-156 with this and still do not notice cloying or maltyness. Might be because I use 3-5% and that doesn't add a lot to the overall grist. That said, I will try torrified wheat in one of my next brews to compare. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Beernik]

I'm not anti-CaraPils. But I don't think it should be used everywhere.

I used CaraPils exclusively for many years. I started using it when I was extract brewing and PMing to give my beers more body and head retention and it carried over into my AG brewing.

When I started brewing higher attenuated beers, I wasn't getting them as dry as I wanted. I wouldn't call it cloying. But the FGs were and sweetness was higher than they should have been for the styles.

 

[schematix]

I made a SMaSH MO lager recently to really good a good idea of the pure flavor and i'm not sure i could differentiate it from a North American 2-row version. Last time i drop premium coin on some floor malted UK grain.

 

[Hanglow]

Crisp do extra pale MO, extra pale ale, a lager malt and they also I think do an extra pale pro-ant free malt too, so plenty to chose from

You could also sub some of your MO for maize to reduce the maltyness but certainly include a bit of torrified wheat to help with head in that case

You don't need any crystal at all for golden ales either, if you've been using some in the past that would be the main culprit, from the grist at least

 

[65C]

Crisp do extra pale MO, extra pale ale, a lager malt and they also I think do an extra pale pro-ant free malt too, so plenty to chose from

thanks I've got some extra pale coming tomorrow with some pils and torrified

first try will be:

3KG Maris Otter
1.75KG Pilsner
250G Torrified

for a 23L batch with my usual 50G bitter and 100G aroma adds - going to try the Saaz for aroma this time