Making vs Brewing

[liquidavalon]

I have been researching anything and everything I can get my hands on about hard cider.

One of the topics not spoken of is that cider is "made" not brewed. Andrew Lea, in his book ' Craft Cider Making ', states that, " It's important to understand that cider is a fruit wine. It is not a beer. Anyone with experience with brewing should try to forget most of it when starting to make cider. To be a cider maker you need to think like a winemaker from the beginning. "

That been said, I started to wonder...since the makers of cider and the brewers of beer have the same goal in mind, to make a great adult beverage.

What can cider makers learn from brewers and visa versa?

Also, do you think that is why there are so many questions regarding the fundamentals of cider making repeated over and over again? Meaning individuals approaching the making of cider with a brewers mindset.

I would be interested to hear thoughts and opinions on the subject.

 

[EdWort]

With Apfelwein as an example, many of the tasks are the same as brewing beer.

Cleaning & sanitizing equipment, taking gravitiy readings, maintaning fermenting temps, racking, bottling, conditioning, etc.

Many Apfelwein makers have made the jump to brewing because of the simplicity of making it and after a batch or two they decide they have the skills to move forward on more complex beverages.

Apfelwein give you confidence!

 

[LeBreton]

I agree that cidermaking is more like winemaking then beer brewing. However, cidermakers can learn a lot from brewers and vice-versa.

Since cider has an alcohol level closer to that of beer it allows us cidermakers to play with a larger variety of yeasts then simply used in wine. Additionally, in the last few decades I know cider has begun to be commonly force-carbed which came directly from beer, and soda, production tech.

I think the common questions we see on this forum is not due to the fact that so many are coming from a brewing background but rather that they are simply new to cider.

So, I agree with the spirit of Andrew Lea's statement but believe that knowledge of other fermentation styles can only strengthen us all.

 

[liquidavalon]

So, I agree with the spirit of Andrew Lea's statement but believe that knowledge of other fermentation styles can only strengthen us all.

This is a great point. One that I believe in!

 

[liquidavalon]

I think the common questions we see on this forum is not due to the fact that so many are coming from a brewing background but rather that they are simply new to cider.

I hope in no way to appear to say that common questions are only posed by those with a beer brewing background, and meant no offense, if it sounded as such. Take myself for instance...I have asked many 'basic' questions, but don't have a background in brewing beer or making wine.

I guess I am thinking more in terms, ie...when we say, 'secondary fermentation', as cider makers are referring to 'malo-lactic' fermentation that has nothing to do with the true secondary yeast fermentation of beer. ( again from Lea)

Point being: Confussion between terms, could be a potential pitfall.

 

[LeBreton]

I guess I am thinking more in terms, ie...when we say, 'secondary fermentation', as cider makers are referring to 'malo-lactic' fermentation that has nothing to do with the true secondary yeast fermentation of beer. ( again from Lea)

Point being: Confussion between terms, could be a potential pitfall.

Interesting, an example of this I've noticed is that winemakers typically use the brix scale while brewers tend to favor SG readings. As a subgroup of the larger mostly brewing HBT community this cider forum uses SG.

I really should get my hands on a copy of Andrew Lea's book. His website is probably the best resource for cidermakers looking to really perfect their craft.

 

[liquidavalon]

I really should get my hands on a copy of Andrew Lea's book. His website is probably the best resource for cidermakers looking to really perfect their craft.

It is a small book ( only 144pgs ) but is saturated with valuable information. It has a 'food scientist' angle. Not for the recipe minded individual...but if you want to understand the 'science' behind craft cider making, this is the book for you.

I purchased a used copy off of half.com for under $15 including shipping. Make sure, if you get it, that it is the updated red cover reprint/revised in 2010/2011.

His website is a valuable tool indeed!

 

[KevinM]

Boiling tends to be one of those things that you have to forget. Most beer makers understand boiling wort for beer, particularly to stop an enzymatic process as well as extract flavors from hops. There's a mental conflict sometimes when doing cider or other non-boiled fermented beverage since boiling the juice from grapes, wine, or honey&water will eliminate the more delicate flavors.

 

[GinKings]

There are many similarities between making most, if not all, fermented beverages (sanitizing, racking, maintaining ferment temps, etc), so I would think knowledge of any of them should help with learning another. That being said, I would consider Anrew Lea a traditional cidermaker and his methods probably are much closer to that of a winemaker than a brewer.

HBT is primarily known as a beer brewing website, so it seems logical that most of the cidermakers in this forum came from a beer brewing background (including myself). I think that's why I see so many beer techniques used in making cider in this forum. Such as boiling cider, adding DME, adding hops, expecting a cider to ferment and clarify in a week or two, fermenting with beer yeast, and even mashing apples. I don't mean to judge whether these methods are good or bad. I'm just saying that I see many more of these on this site than I've seen elsewhere and I have to assume that it's due to the background of most HBTers. As with homebrewing, cidermaking is gaining in popularity and the techniques are improving all the time. Some brewing techniques probably shouldn't be transferred, but maybe the makers can learn a few things from the brewers.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I have been researching anything and everything I can get my hands on about hard cider.

One of the topics not spoken of is that cider is "made" not brewed. Andrew Lea, in his book ' Craft Cider Making ', states that, " It's important to understand that cider is a fruit wine. It is not a beer. Anyone with experience with brewing should try to forget most of it when starting to make cider. To be a cider maker you need to think like a winemaker from the beginning. "

That been said, I started to wonder...since the makers of cider and the brewers of beer have the same goal in mind, to make a great adult beverage.

What can cider makers learn from brewers and visa versa?

Also, do you think that is why there are so many questions regarding the fundamentals of cider making repeated over and over again? Meaning individuals approaching the making of cider with a brewers mindset.

I would be interested to hear thoughts and opinions on the subject.

Yeast management, water chemistry, and oxidation are still a common threads between brewers and vinters.

No. It's more to do with a leap before you look mindset.

 

[liquidavalon]

No. It's more to do with a leap before you look mindset.

Exactly! I am guilty of not doing a search on here before asking a question.

 

[gregbathurst]

There are some very big differences. One is that cider and wine are at heart seasonal beverages. Cider apples are ripened on the tree and processed within a month or so. The opportunity only comes once a year. You can use processed juice or apples from storage but they won't make a good quality drink. Beer brewers get used to making beer at any time of year, so they go for the processed juice, brewers who have very high standards for their beer will accept substandard cider because they want to be able to make it at any time.

With cider and wine you just need juice, you don't need any recipe, it's all there in the juice.

Cider and wine are natural drinks with microflora in the juice, beermakers start with a fairly sterile wort, for cider the concept of yeast populations is much more important.

Greg

 

[Jacob_Marley]

I think that one of the biggest reasons the same questions get asked over and over and over, is that when you are not a “premium supporter” (paid member) the search function is limited to only the most basic search.
This makes it much more difficult and time consuming to dig out information that has already been posted.

On one hand, the money is specifically what keeps the website going. On the other, the lack of the search function makes it much more difficult to find the information you need and often makes it more attractive to just ask the question again. People’s time is valuable to them.
Thankfully, members here do not give grief to those who ask questions, telling them things like “that has been asked before, look it up” or “there are already dozens of posts on that” ... that sort of shutting people down is usually pretty obnoxious.

Members should note that you can go to google and in the Google Advanced Search you can specify to search only a specific website. This at least allows you to add additional search parameters ... extra words, or avoiding certain words ... although it still does not let you search just in thread titles versus the whole body of the post ... nor allow you choose whether to display the results as threads versus posts.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Here's a HOW TO ...

A bit off topic but ...
A handy feature would be, being able to save/bookmark specific posts in your profile page or User CP (control panel).
(Rather than just whole threads - which is what subscribing would be.)
That way you could save and organize good information you come across very specifically and make it easy to refer to.

While I have no idea whether that is even a possibility with this forum software, it IS however possible to bookmark specific *posts* to your browser ... so that when you use that bookmark, you actually go right to that post.

Here is how to do it ...

1) Go to the HBT page that contains the post that you want to bookmark.

2) Go to the top of your browser screen and in the URL box (where the web address is displayed) add the characters (without the quotes) “#post” right at the end of the URL after the characters "html".

3) Then, go down to the post you want to bookmark and hover your mouse over the “Quote” button at the bottom of that post ... and provided that your browser displays URL’s in the status bar at the bottom of your browser screen when you hover on a link ... you will see the “post number” there.
It will be something like “3683728” or a similar number.
Copy or remember that number, and then insert it at the end of the “#post” text you just put in the address box above ... hit enter and, viola ... your page location will then be AT that post and when you bookmark the page in the normal way ... you will actually have saved the link to that specific post.

 

[liquidavalon]

I think that one of the biggest reasons the same questions get asked over and over and over, is that when you are not a “premium supporter” (paid member) the search function is limited to only the most basic search.
This makes it much more difficult and time consuming to dig out information that has already been posted.

On one hand, the money is specifically what keeps the website going. On the other, the lack of the search function makes it much more difficult to find the information you need and often makes it more attractive to just ask the question again. People’s time is valuable to them.
Thankfully, members here do not give grief to those who ask questions, telling them things like “that has been asked before, look it up” or “there are already dozens of posts on that” ... that sort of shutting people down is usually pretty obnoxious.

Members should note that you can go to google and in the Google Advanced Search you can specify to search only a specific website. This at least allows you to add additional search parameters ... extra words, or avoiding certain words ... although it still does not let you search just in thread titles versus the whole body of the post ... nor allow you choose whether to display the results as threads versus posts.

Well said sir...you have put into words what I have been thinking for a while. The search function IS a frustration, but understand that those that paid for a membership, get certain perks...that is how society is run, and that is how you run a website of this quality. I also second the motion that members are gracious in answering questions that have been asked thousands of times before ( you know the ole " First Batch " or "Newbie Question Here" threads ), never being rude or discouraging, and always helpful. I have seen some posts that balance on the edge of sarcastic tone, but nothing serious. In forums you have to posess a "thick skin" as the face-to-face interaction frees up persons who say things that they wouldn't normally have said in close physical conversation. I haven't been a victim of that here nor have I been witness to such actions...which I think proves the calliber of men and women whom frequent this forum site in all of their membership classifications. ( this is one of the only forums mind you that people act like adults! )

 

[truckjohn]

Back to the subject of Cider vs Beer.... I agree that it's more like Wine.... The Vast majority of the quality in cider comes from the Apples and the Yeast... Our job is to watch out for sanitation and maybe temperature control to some extent... That's the opposite of Beer - where you can make about 100 different types of beer from the same list of raw ingredients by just varying the process and fermentation temperatures....

The "Process" in Cider really comes in when you start talking about Keeving, cold crashing, pasteurization, bottle priming, etc......

Thanks

 

[liquidavalon]

Back to the subject of Cider vs Beer.... I agree that it's more like Wine.... The Vast majority of the quality in cider comes from the Apples and the Yeast... Our job is to watch out for sanitation and maybe temperature control to some extent... That's the opposite of Beer - where you can make about 100 different types of beer from the same list of raw ingredients by just varying the process and fermentation temperatures....

The "Process" in Cider really comes in when you start talking about Keeving, cold crashing, pasteurization, bottle priming, etc......

Thanks

Great points! Thanks...

 

[Joe_in_CT]

One thing that cider makers don't need to be concerned with is water quality.

At least those who make cider from juice.

 

[Fizzycist]

There are some very big differences. One is that cider and wine are at heart seasonal beverages. Cider apples are ripened on the tree and processed within a month or so. The opportunity only comes once a year. You can use processed juice or apples from storage but they won't make a good quality drink. Beer brewers get used to making beer at any time of year, so they go for the processed juice, brewers who have very high standards for their beer will accept substandard cider because they want to be able to make it at any time.

With cider and wine you just need juice, you don't need any recipe, it's all there in the juice.

Cider and wine are natural drinks with microflora in the juice, beermakers start with a fairly sterile wort, for cider the concept of yeast populations is much more important.

Greg

Pffft. This comes off just like a beer brewer who says "Only AG, never BIAB, the only adjunct I allow is pure unicorn semen!" The idea that good cider can only come from fresh pressed, non-pasteurized juice and nothing else is as ridiculous as saying extract brewing with more than malted barley will never give you good beer. I say make what you want and enjoy it. This "magical once a year opportunity" to make cider is bull.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

I say make what you want and enjoy it.

I agree fizzy. (except for the part about milking unicorns)

 

[gregbathurst]

Pffft. This comes off just like a beer brewer who says "Only AG, never BIAB, the only adjunct I allow is pure unicorn semen!" The idea that good cider can only come from fresh pressed, non-pasteurized juice and nothing else is as ridiculous as saying extract brewing with more than malted barley will never give you good beer. I say make what you want and enjoy it. This "magical once a year opportunity" to make cider is bull.

The original post was a question about Andrew Lea's advice for cider makers.

"One of the topics not spoken of is that cider is "made" not brewed. Andrew Lea, in his book ' Craft Cider Making ', states that, " It's important to understand that cider is a fruit wine. It is not a beer. Anyone with experience with brewing should try to forget most of it when starting to make cider. To be a cider maker you need to think like a winemaker from the beginning. ""

Now I can't speak for Andrew but I think that he would agree with me that cider made from store-bought juice isn't proper craft cider, and that cider is a seasonal drink. No-one thinks that wine made from reconstituted grape juice is proper wine, so why should cider be any different? I know people make and enjoy wine made with welches grape juice, and cider made with store-bought apple juice and that's good, but they're still not in the same class as good wine or proper craft cider.

Greg

 

[dinnerstick]

sort of in defense of the seasonal cider makers, some of us find great satisfaction in waiting the whole year for the apples to start coming in, and selecting different blends, predicting the final outcome. i make cider in the autumn, beer in the winter, elderflower and rhubarb wine in the spring, skeeter pee in the summer, etc. harvesting and pressing are fun social activities. well, that's up for debate, but they can be anyways. so i treasure the fact that i only make cider for about 2 months, and since i don't have trees, i love collecting some apples from friends, and foraging for others, stealing crabapples over fences (HBT does not condone). if i get more out of this experience than someone who pours yeast into a jug of juice, i can't say, and it would be pointless to try to compare two people's experiences. but the satisfaction of someone who seeks out old cider apple varieties, plants the trees, waits for years for the first crop, i think that would be pretty amazing.
as to whether one way is better than another, that's a different argument, and one i personally am not interested in. i have no doubt whatsoever that some people make an excellent drink from bottled juice. it would be great to sit down at a table with a few bottles and a few hours to kill and have at it. but my point is that this type of seasonal cider making offers something different from fermenting bottled juice. arguments to the contrary are welcome/encouraged, and in my opinion anyone with a holier than thou attitude over their process should be heartily discouraged.
however, i am fairly certain that cider blends that give bitter, sharp and sweet components are going to have the potential to yield a more complex final drink, and afford much more room to get creative. my simple ciders made from sweet apples are delicious (say i) but mixing in sharps and bitters take it somewhere else (sometimes a bit... err challenging, sometimes amazing). but- some people who like the mass-produced supermarket ciders can't drink my stuff (whereas i can drink buckets of that crap!), so it's certainly not a universal truth that bittersharp blends or craft ciders are 'better'. and it's great if your ego gets a bit ahead of you to see someone's face when they take a sip of your treasured dry cider as it puckers up into a disgusted prune! oh well, more for me.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

I will agree that making cider is definitely more like making wine that beer. Hands down, no argument. I think my argument is that we shouldn't turn cider making into some sort of pretentious cult and that if you aren't making "craft" cider then you are just making swill. I think that's far from the case.

I personally don't fall into the scientist brewer/maker category. I try to follow obvious rules of cleanliness etc. But otherwise I'm happy with a product that I think tastes good to me. I have no intentions of opening a cider house and mass produce my ciders...I want to (paraphrasing dinnerstick) sit around the table with friends and knock back some. Enjoy the moment of friends and not beat myself up about not making a "craft" cider.

I can probably guess with 99% assurance that there is some fresh pressed "swill" being made out there, but I am not going to knock someone for only using 5% of this apple instead of 10%...or since you live in oklahoma, you can't get good cider apples there.

I know for sure that if I pressed my apples or bought perfectly blended fresh pressed juice that I could make some damned fine cider using my methods. I'm just not fortunate enough to have friends that will give me apples. (but the lady down the street has crabapples - and no fence jumping required) I also don't feel the desire to drive 3 hours round trip to go to the nearest orchard. So I'll continue to make my bottled juice cider until I plant those cider apples on the back forty.

 

[Fizzycist]

Well, I can understand if someone gets extra enjoyment from taking the process from apples (or even seeds) to cider. I just hope we don't start telling people they aren't making "real" cider unless they press their own.

And of course I should expose my own hypocrisy. I do a lot of baking and if somebody asks if something I made came from a mix I have to try real hard to keep from sneering. Same kinda issue.

 

[truckjohn]

Just out of curiosity..... What do you Beer guys call "Beer" that is made 100% out of "Supermarket" ingredients like Crackers, Breakfast cereal, Sugar, Beano, and bread yeast.... I think it's properly called "Hooch" and violates the common "No Hooch" rules even here on our own forums...

In this light - we are far more accepting of quick and dirty batches made of "Common" ingredients like Supermarket jug juice, bread yeast, Kool-aid, and even soda.... That stuff would get you shut down in Beer Land....

I am really seeing more of the opposite... Far too many folks who have no desire to go see what Cider can really be.... You can get those apples - and even "Cider apple" juices in the fall if you look around.... Kinda like how the Wine guys buy their "Wine Kits".... Why is there a backlash from a few people on this post against using the "Real Deal"?

The comparison of Jug Juice vs Fresh Pressed varietals against Extract vs All Grain beer in this case isn't even remotely close.... There are tons of extracts out there... and you can still make 50 different types of beer out of the same basic list of extracts and adjuncts by changing around the process, water chemistry, the way you hop, boiling, cooling, yeast, fermentation temps, lagering, etc.... Those beers can and do win awards...

It really is more accurately the difference between Supermarket jug juice wine and actual wine made from grapes.... In the commercial Grape juice processing operations - you do stuff like try to get rid of stems, seeds and hulls... They also don't allow the juice to sit on the hulls, sticks, and seeds for long - as all these produce off flavors in the juice.... Then, the juice is cooked to kill anything alive in it, and various preservatives and additives are added to prevent the flavors from degrading over time.... These all change what you get when it's fermented.... You don't get the interesting flavors and complexity that blooms as it ages... It just dulls as it ages... It seems like it gets less complex and more bland as it sits longer and longer....

But.. that's OK - it is what it is... Lots of folks make this stuff.... Don't let it age too long and it's pretty enjoyable....

In general, it's kinda the same with Ciders... While Jug juice ciders are delicious if cold crashed before they run dry for drinking within 6 months or so... They don't do well for letting them sit and age a while... They don't have enough acid or tannins or any of that - and get real bland after 3-6 months.... You can help this by supplementing your blend with 10-20% Apple juice concentrate if you want... and you get Cider that is pretty darn tasty.. even a year later.... but it's not the same as Cider made from Cider apples....

But.. Kinda like Wine - if you really want to go all in (No one says you have to) - you make wine out of "Wine grapes" - and they don't sell those in the supermarket.... Just like if you want to go all in with Ciders and Perry - you use Cider apples and Perry pears and you get a finished product that is *Very* different...

You don't know what you are missing till you try it!

Thanks

 

[conpewter]

Just out of curiosity..... What do you Beer guys call "Beer" that is made 100% out of "Supermarket" ingredients like Crackers, Breakfast cereal, Sugar, Beano, and bread yeast.... I think it's properly called "Hooch" and violates the common "No Hooch" rules even here on our own forums...

In this light - we are far more accepting of quick and dirty batches made of "Common" ingredients like Supermarket jug juice, bread yeast, Kool-aid, and even soda.... That stuff would get you shut down in Beer Land....

...

BTW there is a great thread on this and a bit of a contest at one point I believe. so.. yeah didn't get shot down at all.

The thing not allowed on the form is distillation. Though some threads on freeze concentrating have been allowed, as that's a gray area.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Why is there a backlash from a few people on this post against using the "Real Deal"?

All very valid points John and you definitely aren't getting backlash from me on using the "real deal". Far from it. I hope that I didn't come across this way. I'm not against using fresh pressed orchard juice. I personally just don't have access to it at a reasonable price. If I did, I'd probably be using it.

I guess I just took offense early on that if you aren't going to use a select blend of juice that someone (or yourself) pressed that day...then you were making a substandard product. I just thought this was a narrow opinion of what they consider an enjoyable home brewed (made) cider.

I know it's easy to say...fresh juice is there...just look around. I called every local orchard I could find online within a 75 mile radius of my home this past October. (Maybe 10 or so?) I explained what I was doing and was looking to try and create a relationship with one of them. Any of them. Unless I came across as a total nut bag, they just didn't seem interested. The price is what it is and I'm sorry. (anywhere from $7 to $8 a gallon) Include the price of gas to travel to North Georgia to pick it up and it was out of my price range. I was looking to make cider and consume it, not looking to store it for years.

I respect everyone's view on here. It's fun to read everyone's experiences. I'd just rather the main question be "I'm glad you enjoy the cider you make using that ingredient" not "You're not making real cider using that ingredient"

 

[johnsnownw]

My response to this thread will be short and sweet.

I may have just started making cider, but I wasn't born yesterday. There are two, and only two ingredients necessary for making cider: Juice from apples & yeast.

Now, I don't care if your apple juice came from a tree growing in the Garden of Eden, and pressed by half-naked angels. Your cider is no more cider than a guy who mops up an apple juice spill in isle 8, rings the juice into a bucket, and then pitches bread yeast taken off the shelf because it's a week past it's sell-by-date.

If being an elitist about cider makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, then fine, but telling someone their beverage comprised of apple juice and yeast isn't a proper cider isn't just incorrect, it's moronic.

That said, I have enjoyed reading about peoples' experiences and their use of ingredients, and I certainly appreciate all those who are aiding my education in the art of brewing.

Sincerely,

JohnSnowNW

 

[gregbathurst]

I never said there is something wrong with making cider from supermarket juice, but the original question was about a book (and website) describing how to make cider from fresh-pressed juice, and why it should be approached differently to beer making.

Obviously this website is mainly about beer so most posters will have the beer attitude, and I have upset some, but if you think supermarket juice is as good as fresh pressed (from well ripened fruit) then you are just kidding yourself. Most people don't have access to the fresh pressed which is a pity, but then most people don't have access to wine grapes either.

 

[liquidavalon]

WOW. I wouldn't have thought that this thread would go downhill from where it had originally started. =)

 

[truckjohn]

I think we need a new thread for "Where do you get your apples?"