Low mash rest, or more yeast?

[tonyolympia]

My current beer, an APA, was mashed at 154. That, and I believe the 15% Munich and 5% CaraPils in the recipe, resulted in a lot of unfermentables and a high FG.

For my next beer, a red ale with 10% Munich and 15% Crystal malts, I thought about doing a step mash, or else a single infusion somewhere between 148-152.

However, after inquiring with the brewmaster at a commercial brewery, I received the brewer's notes for their red ale, a beer that's one of my favorites. I'd really like to follow as much of his process as possible, which would mean a single infusion mash at 156, even higher than I mashed before.

Instead of having a low mash temp for this red ale, do you think that I could address the high FG problem by pitching considerably more yeast? I.e. twice the number of cells that Mr. Malty recommends? Would that provide any greater degree of attenuation?

Thanks for your guidance. This is my second AG batch.

 

[EBloom97]

If your goal is a low final gravity, than the advice given to you by the brewmaster is not relevant. He was telling you to mash higher because red ales are styled to have a higher final gravity.

 

[tonyolympia]

If your goal is a low final gravity, than the advice given to you by the brewmaster is not relevant. He was telling you to mash higher because red ales are styled to have a higher final gravity.

I don't specifically want a lower FG, I just wanted to see if I could get my attenuation within the 72-76% range that is cited for my yeast (Wyeast 1272). I got 63% attenuation in my APA, and I saw that as a problem I needed to fix somehow.

I think my concern also comes from the recipes I'm using as a starting point--in Jamil Zainasheff's "Brewing Classic Styles," his APA and amber ale recipes mash at 152-154, have a grain bill with similar character malts that, as I understand it, have lower diastatic power, and use a similarly attenuative yeast (1056). Still, the recipes say to look for 77% ADF (which is the same thing as attenuation, correct?) and final gravities of 1010 - 1015.

I look at those guidelines, and think that I might need to fine-tune my process. Do you think I have the wrong idea?

 

[EBloom97]

Maybe you should try something with no crystal malt and a low mash temp, and see if you still have attenuation problems.

Unless you are under pitching, which it doesn't seem like you are, then there's no need to use more yeast.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Can you give us more details on your yeast pitching process?

Are you making a starter? Are you oxygenating your wort? More details can really help as I think you might just need to tweak your yeast handling process to get the desired pitch of healthy yeast you need.

 

[Patirck]

I think you should also look at your fermentation process - do you have a temp controlled ferm chamber? I am sure the commercial brewery does and it most likely keeps the beer within a degree or so of what the brewmaster wants.

There are some tricks to help with attenuation - I don't have any experience with them but I have read that adding beano to the primary will help turn unfermentable sugars into fermentable sugars. You could also try the step fermentation process although it sounds like that may not be much of a help if your wort is full of unfermentables.

Or, if you like the flavor and mouthfeel, don't worry about it. Mashing lower will change the the mouthfeel and create a thinner body beer.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I would not add beano to it... that is a last ditch effort to fix a stuck fermentation before you dump it. I don't think that is what is going on here.

 

[tonyolympia]

Can you give us more details on your yeast pitching process?

Are you making a starter? Are you oxygenating your wort? More details can really help as I think you might just need to tweak your yeast handling process to get the desired pitch of healthy yeast you need.

For my APA, I pitched a fresh smack pack into a 1 liter starter. I think I made (and pitched) the starter by the books, except that instead of swirling the starter to get the yeast into suspension for pitching, I stupidly shook it, causing some to spray all over my face and the kitchen. However, I really didn't lose much of the 1 liter, and since I was pitching to a 3 gallon batch, I think it was probably a pretty robust pitching rate.

To oxygenate, I shook the carboy vigorously for 1 minute, so I probably got 8ppm. I've been shaking prior to pitching. Do you folks shake after pitching, as well?

I think you should also look at your fermentation process - do you have a temp controlled ferm chamber? I am sure the commercial brewery does and it most likely keeps the beer within a degree or so of what the brewmaster wants.

I fermented at 68->70 steady for the lag time and attenuative stage, which was right where I hoped to be. My hunch is that temperature was not a contributing factor.

You could also try the step fermentation process although it sounds like that may not be much of a help if your wort is full of unfermentables.

Or, if you like the flavor and mouthfeel, don't worry about it. Mashing lower will change the the mouthfeel and create a thinner body beer.

Two questions about this. First, my understanding was that two rests, one in the 140s and the other in the 150s, let's say 30 min each, would leave ample time for both alpha- and beta-amylase activity, and so would reduce the number of long dextrines and also provide more maltose, thereby REDUCING the unfermentables. Wrong?

Second, I tend to think of mouthfeel as something independent of flavor (e.g. maltiness). I like a full mouthfeel, but I want to dial it down just a tad. I hope that by mashing one or two degrees lower, I wouldn't also sacrifice flavor.

 

[MrAverage]

More aeration will help. After years of doing the pour and shake routine, I've recently been using a paint mixer in an electric drill to aerate the heck out of the wort and have noticed lower FG's as a result.

Also, you didn't tell us how long the beer was in the primary fermenter. I've found that leaving it in the primary for three or four weeks and not doing a transfer to a secondary promotes better attenuation

 

[Patirck]

I fermented at 68->70 steady for the lag time and attenuative stage, which was right where I hoped to be. My hunch is that temperature was not a contributing factor.



Two questions about this. First, my understanding was that two rests, one in the 140s and the other in the 150s, let's say 30 min each, would leave ample time for both alpha- and beta-amylase activity, and so would reduce the number of long dextrines and also provide more maltose, thereby REDUCING the unfermentables. Wrong?

Second, I tend to think of mouthfeel as something independent of flavor (e.g. maltiness). I like a full mouthfeel, but I want to dial it down just a tad. I hope that by mashing one or two degrees lower, I wouldn't also sacrifice flavor.

I agree mouthfeel and flavor are two different things. Body is generally increased by mash temp. Flavor has more to do with ingredients for the purposes of your questions above. If you don't mind sacrificing some body for a lower fg, try mashing a few degrees cooler - not too much - start out with two or three degrees different from what you are doing now.

As for the main question - a higher than planned on FG is generally caused by the yeast either:

1. Not being able to eat the sugars (long sugars instead of short sugars).

2. Not having enough healthy yeast to eat all the sugars (either underpitching or getting a stuck fermentation for a variety of reasons)

If there are healthy yeast and edible sugars in the right environment they should attenuate as expected.

Doing a two step mash versus a three step or single infusion shouldn't make much difference in reaching final gravity - all will work. Are you hitting your OG targets? Exceeding them?

As for adding beano, I have never done it but I wouldn't be afraid to try it if you really want to lower the FG. I have been doing a little research on making lower carbohydrate beer and getting a super low final gravity is key to this so I may be trying it soon.

Without knowing more info I think I would try a simpler single infusion mash and see how that works. If you have the same problem - perhaps it is not a problem with long sugars but more of a yeast or fermentation issue.

 

[tonyolympia]

Thanks, everyone, for your help!