Looking for suggestions for a good primary yeast straing for a sour ale

[joshrosborne]

I'd just pitch the Melange. I could be totally wrong, but I don't know if the additional Brett will do much. I'd just save it for another beer.

 

[TAK]

That's what I'm thinking too. I wanted to add the extra funky Brett when I had been planning on using Roeselare. But since the Melange has much more Brett diversity than Roeselare, I'm not sure it'll make much of a difference, or if it's worth it. I think I'll just pitch the Melange. I can always Brett up a future addition to the Solera if I think it needs tweaking.

 

[TAK]

I brewed this on Sunday, pitched the vial of Melange and dregs from a lambic. I provided O2 with a diffusion stone for the same amount I'd do for a normal fermentation of the same gravity. I'm holding temp within +/- 1 degree of 70F. I got gas activity through the blowoff on Monday morning, probably at most 15 hours after pitch, and it really picked up by 24 hours. After always growing starters, it feels weird to direct pitch into 6 gallons. I'm an avid glass carboy user, but this is in a bucket. It's killing me not to see what's going on in there.

 

[joshrosborne]

I would rack to a carboy after primary fermentation is done. I'd be concerned a bucket would let in too much oxygen.

 

[TAK]

I would rack to a carboy after primary fermentation is done. I'd be concerned a bucket would let in too much oxygen.

Oh, that's totally my plan. After primary, probably a good month, I'll rack into a 6.5 gal carboy (which actually holds 7.0 gal when you go up to the neck). Then I'm pitching a smaller batch on top of the cake. That second batch will be used to top of the carboy all the way up to 7 gal. That's the start of my solera. I'll pull 3-4 gal, probably annually.

 

[joshrosborne]

That sounds like a fantastic idea. Good luck!

 

[TAK]

This quote...

- If the cake is only a few weeks old, you probably want to take about 3/4 of the cake away. The sacc yeast will be dominant and tear thru any fresh wort.

From this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/pitching-onto-yeast-cake-how-502086/

got me thinking, rather more seriously thinking, about the pitch for my second batch to top off the solera. My first batch is 6 gal. I expect to get about 5.5 gal into the carboy. Then, my second batch will be just 2 gal, to get a solid 1.5 out in order to top off the carboy. The cake from this 6 gal batch is very certainly more than what is needed for the 2 gal. Should I remove a good portion before racking my second batch onto it? I imagine even just 1/5th of the cake is plenty. I'd save the rest of the cake for the next annual solera replacement batch, and might save the cake from my second small batch too.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Since 1/5 of a cake will do 5 gal easy, I'd do 2/5 of that (2/25?) for your two gallons. Better yet, use a yeast pitching rate calculator on the slurry setting. 30 ml of slurry has been calculated as enough for a gal in my experimental batches. I would save the cake in jars and measure out slurry to pitch.

 

[TAK]

I thought about taking a calculated approach like that. I'm usually very precise in my pitching rates. But for a couple of gallons of sour that will make up about 20% of my initial solera fill, is being catious to not over-pitch that important? Maybe it is, just asking.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I would just do it that way personally because it's easy, and I'm used to doing it. I'm going to harvest it and store it in the jars anyway, might as well measure out the pitch. I'd also be afraid of pitching too much sacc because I want it to sour.

 

[TAK]

I would then save the cake in a mason jar and keep it at room temp to favor the bug and Brett survival over the Sacch.

I'll be racking off the cake in a couple weeks now. Do you fill the jar to the brim? Do I need to worry about pressure building up in the jar? If so, should I keep the lid loose, or should it be burped periodically?

 

[vagabondat02]

I usually fill the jars right to the top and burp it every week or so at first, and less often as the critters go dormant. How's the batch going? I just got vials of Melange, Beersel Brett, and Wallonian, but didn't have time to brew this weekend.

 

[TAK]

I pitched the Melange, no starter, with O2, into about 6 gal, and held it steady at 70F. Fermentation started within 24 hours, judging from gas activity, and it went for about a week as a typical ferment would progress. At about day 10, I needed my fermentation fridge, so I moved the bucket out into the basement, where ambient is a tad cool at 64F.

When I moved the bucket, I removed the bung that held my thermowell and sealed it up. That's the only time the bucket has been "open." The smell was great. I'm not that good at describing what I taste or smell, but it was a very forward, maybe over-ripe fruit smell. Judging by the residue on the thermowell, high krausen about an inch thick.

In a bit over a week from now, I'll rack it into a 7 gal carboy, with a tad bit of the cake. At the same time I'm brewing a 2 gal batch of the same recipe, to top off the 7 gal carboy. I'll try to portion about 6 oz of thin-ish slury (estimated optimal pitch from mr. malty) to pitch with the 2 gal. The rest I'll keep in a jar at cellar temps until the next time I plan to pull and replace.

I'm eager to see how it is when rack into the carboy.

 

[sweetcell]

TAK - are you planning on fermenting the 2 gallons on their own before topping up? You could just add them directly to the 5 already fermented gallons and not even need to pitch any slurry . There should be plenty of bugs in suspension in the first 5 gallons to take care of the next 2. Plus, you said you were going to transfer party of the cake. There is an additional source of bugs. Just a thought.

 

[TAK]

My fermentation vessel can't handle the extra volume. Ideally I would have fermented about 7.5-8 gal in one shot to get my final 7 gal for the carboy, but I didn't have anything big enough.

 

[Biobrewer]

I pitched the Melange, no starter, with O2, into about 6 gal, and held it steady at 70F. Fermentation started within 24 hours, judging from gas activity, and it went for about a week as a typical ferment would progress. At about day 10, I needed my fermentation fridge, so I moved the bucket out into the basement, where ambient is a tad cool at 64F.

When I moved the bucket, I removed the bung that held my thermowell and sealed it up. That's the only time the bucket has been "open." The smell was great. I'm not that good at describing what I taste or smell, but it was a very forward, maybe over-ripe fruit smell. Judging by the residue on the thermowell, high krausen about an inch thick.

In a bit over a week from now, I'll rack it into a 7 gal carboy, with a tad bit of the cake. At the same time I'm brewing a 2 gal batch of the same recipe, to top off the 7 gal carboy. I'll try to portion about 6 oz of thin-ish slury (estimated optimal pitch from mr. malty) to pitch with the 2 gal. The rest I'll keep in a jar at cellar temps until the next time I plan to pull and replace.

I'm eager to see how it is when rack into the carboy.

Glad to hear the Melange blend is working out well for you TAK. I have a slew of batches including turbid mash lambic-style, sour brown, single infusion lambic-style going with the Melange blend (one with the R&D version of the blend!) and they are all progressing nicely. Please keep us updated on the progress. Cheers!

 

[FredTheNuke]

Late addition to the questions:

I understand why you want Sacc for the initial solera fermentation - you want to ensure that random wild stuff doesn't take over the wort. So a few months in your Brett and Bugz will develop and begin eating whatever the Sacc didn't eat or the byproducts of the Sacc.

Now a year later you are going to remove some and add fresh wort. The Solera brett and bugz are there and have a good hold on the bulk of the Solera - your small addition should fall well within their means.

So my question - why add Sacc? Wouldn't it just take away from the Brett and Bugz food supply? There is very little danger of something wild taking over IMO.

I can see adding Sacc on year 2 or 3's pulls IF the Solera is getting too sour - it will reign in the Brett and Bugs.

That brings another question to mind - do the brett and bugs also produce ethanol as a byproduct? For example if you have a 7% ABV solera produced from wort with an OG/FG that will result in a 7% ABV beverage, and take out a gallon and add a fresh gallon if identical wort is added will the ABV end up back at 7% if Sacc is not part of the fermentation.

Being there are all Brett beers out there I may have the answer to my own question - that yes they do produce ethanol but would like some confirmation that I am thinking relatively straight.

 

[TAK]

Late addition to the questions:

I understand why you want Sacc for the initial solera fermentation - you want to ensure that random wild stuff doesn't take over the wort. So a few months in your Brett and Bugz will develop and begin eating whatever the Sacc didn't eat or the byproducts of the Sacc.

Now a year later you are going to remove some and add fresh wort. The Solera brett and bugz are there and have a good hold on the bulk of the Solera - your small addition should fall well within their means.

So my question - why add Sacc? Wouldn't it just take away from the Brett and Bugz food supply? There is very little danger of something wild taking over IMO.

I can see adding Sacc on year 2 or 3's pulls IF the Solera is getting too sour - it will reign in the Brett and Bugs.

That brings another question to mind - do the brett and bugs also produce ethanol as a byproduct? For example if you have a 7% ABV solera produced from wort with an OG/FG that will result in a 7% ABV beverage, and take out a gallon and add a fresh gallon if identical wort is added will the ABV end up back at 7% if Sacc is not part of the fermentation.

Being there are all Brett beers out there I may have the answer to my own question - that yes they do produce ethanol but would like some confirmation that I am thinking relatively straight.

Actually, this thread has strayed from the OP title. I opted not to pitch Sacc, other than what was in the Melange mix. This top-off isn't actually a year in, I have about 6 gallons that I'll transfer soon which is the very start of my solera, and I'm brewing up another small batch (hopefully this weekend). That will be fermented out and then added to completely top off the solera carboy.

In subsequent years, I'm not sure if I'll add fresh wort to the solera, or ferment them out in any way before hand. My carboy will be filled to the brim, so fresh wort fermenting would explode out a blow-off tube. I'm inclined to say in year 1 and forward, I'll be adding already fermented wort. Maybe it will be clean with a Belgian strain, maybe it will be with another sour blend, which would yield a new cake to use for other projects.

Brett does produce ethanol, other bugs don't necessarily. I remember reading something on themadfermentationist where he shows that change in gravity can pretty much be attributed to ethanol production, but would the ABV be the same in your example, I'm not sure?

 

[TAK]

An update and a question or two:

I racked the first batch from bucket to carboy after 4 weeks. Gravity went from 1.055 to 1.007. The volume transferred was about 5.67 gal. I kept 2 cups of trub in a mason jar, and pitched the rest (maybe 6 oz) into the 2 gal top-off batch. The top-off batch was brewed on the same day I transferred the first batch, and after a week, the top-off batch went from 1.064 to 1.010, and 1.33 gal was transferred to top off the solera carboy to a full 7 gal.

When I transferred the first batch, even after 4 weeks, it was very cloudy with yeast/bugs. After racking it to glass, it settled. There is now a thin, clean cake at the bottom (pic below). Is this going to be ok in my solera, both over the next year before my first pull, and over the long term over subsequent pulls/top-offs?

Samples from both the main batch and the top-off batch where less than good tasting. The first batch was skewed by the suspended yeast/bugs and had a distinctive green taste. But the top-off batch was clean when I sampled, and that green characteristic wasn't there. The batches maybe could be called funky, but were not a nuanced, interesting funk, but rather they just tasted, I don't know, maybe not bad, but not good. I know that's not described well, but is that typical for Melange or other blends like this? Is it reasonable to expect that if it's characteristically "not good" after primary that it may evolve still to something desirable?

 

[vagabondat02]

It's pretty standard practice to leave Lambic on the trub for years at a time, so I wouldn't worry about it. As far as flavor goes, this beer is still many months away from being finished. I usually don't bother tasting until it's about six months in.

 

[sweetcell]

When I transferred the first batch, even after 4 weeks, it was very cloudy with yeast/bugs. After racking it to glass, it settled. There is now a thin, clean cake at the bottom (pic below). Is this going to be ok in my solera, both over the next year before my first pull, and over the long term over subsequent pulls/top-offs?

no worries with that thin cake. short of waiting a long time before transferring and/or filtering, you're always going to get some settling out.

Samples from both the main batch and the top-off batch where less than good tasting. The first batch was skewed by the suspended yeast/bugs and had a distinctive green taste. But the top-off batch was clean when I sampled, and that green characteristic wasn't there. The batches maybe could be called funky, but were not a nuanced, interesting funk, but rather they just tasted, I don't know, maybe not bad, but not good. I know that's not described well, but is that typical for Melange or other blends like this? Is it reasonable to expect that if it's characteristically "not good" after primary that it may evolve still to something desirable?

yes, the taste will evolve. the beer was only 4 weeks old, you'll be aging it at least 52 weeks. that means it still has 92% of its life ahead of it (if not more). give the bugs some time to do their magic. sours can go through all sorts of phases.

 

[Biobrewer]

An update and a question or two:

I racked the first batch from bucket to carboy after 4 weeks. Gravity went from 1.055 to 1.007. The volume transferred was about 5.67 gal. I kept 2 cups of trub in a mason jar, and pitched the rest (maybe 6 oz) into the 2 gal top-off batch. The top-off batch was brewed on the same day I transferred the first batch, and after a week, the top-off batch went from 1.064 to 1.010, and 1.33 gal was transferred to top off the solera carboy to a full 7 gal.

When I transferred the first batch, even after 4 weeks, it was very cloudy with yeast/bugs. After racking it to glass, it settled. There is now a thin, clean cake at the bottom (pic below). Is this going to be ok in my solera, both over the next year before my first pull, and over the long term over subsequent pulls/top-offs?

Samples from both the main batch and the top-off batch where less than good tasting. The first batch was skewed by the suspended yeast/bugs and had a distinctive green taste. But the top-off batch was clean when I sampled, and that green characteristic wasn't there. The batches maybe could be called funky, but were not a nuanced, interesting funk, but rather they just tasted, I don't know, maybe not bad, but not good. I know that's not described well, but is that typical for Melange or other blends like this? Is it reasonable to expect that if it's characteristically "not good" after primary that it may evolve still to something desirable?

TAK, I'll only speak for the Melange blend. I just tasted a turbid mash lambic style beer held at around 72 F that's ~8 weeks old. The pH is down to 3.34 and it has a nice sourness to it, but it certainly has a ways to go in terms of well-rounded flavor development. As the pH drops and the bulk of fermentation completes, Brettanomyces will start to show itself and really begin developing more complexity and depth of fruity/funky flavors in the beer. As for you tasting a bunch of cells in suspension, yes, that will certainly lead to a yeasty off flavor that will be very off-putting (to me anyways), and makes it difficult to assess the beer itself. Also, there's typically no need to rush the these style beers off the yeast cake, and what autolysis is occurring can be cleaned up and utilized by the other organisms.

Cheers!

 

[TAK]

Thanks for all the reassurance. I won't worry about the cake, and I won't stress over the initial taste. I doubt I'll crack the seal on the carboy for another 12 months. I'll be sure to report back when I do.

 

[sweetcell]

I doubt I'll crack the seal on the carboy for another 12 months.

you're doing it right. set it and forget it. just don't forget to check the air lock every now and then to ensure it hasn't dried out.

 

[FredTheNuke]

I sure second that motion! I've tried my sours here and there as they have aged and my oldest one (one year) is just now in the ballpark of tasting beyond OK. Another year and it should be excellent!