Looking for a German Style Mentor

[Robert65]

Note also that while, as has been mentioned, not all breweries employ the exact same methods as the biggest ones, nonetheless any commercial brewer, by virtue of the square cube law referenced, is effectively running a low oxygen operation relative to those of us working on the homebrew scale. So even to match these smaller German (or any other) breweries, we would have to take some of these extra measures. These hacks can enable us, with our natural limitations of financial and engineering capacities, to emulate the same conditions and achieve the same process goals. So whether you are trying to replicate a German macro lager, or any other style, you may find it well worth your while to explore these methods, and any beer can benefit from their application. It really is just trying to follow sound brewing practices as understood in the light of long experience in the professional brewing world, and recognizing that we homebrewers are open to and need to address certain vulnerabilities that simply aren't a concern for commercial scale brewers. And once you try these things a couple of times, you realize that no more effort is really involved than in your old routine, and it all quickly becomes second nature. Do avail yourself of the great resources and friendly, helpful, and endlessly inquisitive folk (we really are! ) at Low Oxygen Brewing.

 

[Pappers_]

I suspect the intent of this thread is to reproduce German lagers. But there are lots of ales brewed in Germany - here's a picture of the fermentors at a altbier brewery I visited in Dusseldorf (Fuchshen). Not so much LoDO. I don't know for sure, but maybe they only use the open fermentors for local kegs (not bottled beer). I did see their keg filling line in another area, but no bottling there.

You might be interested in this PP. One of my very favorite commercial breweries in this city that now has the largest number of breweries in the country - Chicago - is Dovetail. They specialize in German styles and . . . . . use open fermenters. Its crazy, and their beer is just outstanding.

 

[Big Monk]

You might be interested in this PP. One of my very favorite commercial breweries in this city that now has the largest number of breweries in the country - Chicago - is Dovetail. They specialize in German styles and . . . . . use open fermenters. Its crazy, and their beer is just outstanding.

What’s crazy about open fermenters?

 

[passedpawn]

You might be interested in this PP. One of my very favorite commercial breweries in this city that now has the largest number of breweries in the country - Chicago - is Dovetail. They specialize in German styles and . . . . . use open fermenters. Its crazy, and their beer is just outstanding.

Have you been to Jolly Pumpkin? I remember hearing that they also use open fermentation for some of their beers - maybe they are looking for the local funk in their beers, not sure. Those Dusseldorf altbiers are very clean tasting, but I did bring back some of their yeast and grew it and found some bugs (bacteria) in there. I suppose this is getting off topic, so I'll refrain from posting those pics

 

[passedpawn]

What’s crazy about open fermenters?

In this case, I think he means "unusual". It is VERY unusual in homebrewing.

 

[Big Monk]

In this case, I think he means "unusual". It is VERY unusual in homebrewing.

In that case yes, but very doable. We have a few members, @Bilsch notably, who routinely open ferment beers.

 

[Pappers_]

What’s crazy about open fermenters?

Of the other 166 breweries in the Chicago-area, I doubt that one other uses open fermenters for all their beers.

 

[Pappers_]

Have you been to Jolly Pumpkin? I remember hearing that they also use open fermentation for some of their beers - maybe they are looking for the local funk in their beers, not sure.

Their main base is in Michigan, but they opened a brew pub in the Hyde Park neighborhood of Chicago. I don't know if they use open fermenters or not, but they definitely do the funk LOL.

 

[Bassman2003]

I would like add to the conversation with a simple thought... just try it. Firsthand knowledge will let you know if you want to continue learning about the process. For many of us it was obvious after the first sip that something different is going on.

1st thing to try is the kegging process. Properly purge your kegs to extend the life of whatever flavor you have created in fermentation.
2nd thing to try is natural carbonation - spunding or bottle conditioning.
3rd thing to try is removing the oxygen out of your strike water, pre-boiling or yeast scavenging.

These are huge steps and do not involve any chemicals or equipment one does not already own or use. (well maybe a sounding valve...)

I am very appreciative of everybody at the Low Oxygen Brewing forum. Open sharing of information that has really improved my beer. Why it gets shot down all over the place is beyond me.

In an effort to participate and give back in a way, I am making a series of videos on many of the low oxygen practices as I execute them on my homebrew system centered around an Anvil Foundry. (Definitely not a super high end system). My hope is to have a cache of videos that can be referenced showing these techniques in action.

Hope this helps and the link is in my signature.

 

[mongoose33]

I would like add to the conversation with a simple thought... just try it. Firsthand knowledge will let you know if you want to continue learning about the process. For many of us it was obvious after the first sip that something different is going on.

1st thing to try is the kegging process. Properly purge your kegs to extend the life of whatever flavor you have created in fermentation.
2nd thing to try is natural carbonation - spunding or bottle conditioning.
3rd thing to try is removing the oxygen out of your strike water, pre-boiling or yeast scavenging.

These are huge steps and do not involve any chemicals or equipment one does not already own or use. (well maybe a sounding valve...)

I am very appreciative of everybody at the Low Oxygen Brewing forum. Open sharing of information that has really improved my beer. Why it gets shot down all over the place is beyond me.

In an effort to participate and give back in a way, I am making a series of videos on many of the low oxygen practices as I execute them on my homebrew system centered around an Anvil Foundry. (Definitely not a super high end system). My hope is to have a cache of videos that can be referenced showing these techniques in action.

Hope this helps and the link is in my signature.

I've been doing LODO stuff now for....maybe 2 1/2 years. Your advice above is spot on. People who haven't done it and have doubts should try it and see if they can perceive a difference.

There is one, at least it's been obvious in my own brewing.

However, that's not the end of the story. Whether someone LIKES the result is a different deal entirely. They may not.

I've done a Pilsner with flavor that is like a punch in the mouth of Pilsner flavor. It is impressive, and I took it as a sign that I had conquered much--not all--of the LODO methodology.

But here's the thing: I didn't care for it that much. I have a super-taster friend who thought it was terrific, but me? No. I'm not a huge fan of punch-in-the-mouth pilsner flavor. Pretty much like how I'm not a fan of Belgians. I-just-don't-care-for-the-flavor-that-much.

*****************​

I do a dark lager (Darth Lager!). It's my flagship beer. Done with LODO techniques, the dark flavors overwhelm the flavor palette (yeah, palette, not palate). It just isn't what I wanted, and it's not what made that beer my house beer. Too much....whatever.

I've tried toning down the recipe, reduced the amount of dark malts (choc wheat and choc malt) to relatively small amounts, and it STILL is overwhelming when using LODO stuff.

So I "regressed." I brewed Darth using non-lodo techniques. No pre-boiling. No mash cap. Nothing out of the ordinary. Guess what? It's BACK! The beer I loved, and made over and over again, is back. I still have a half-keg of "Heavy" Darth on tap, but it just doesn't work as well....for me.

But....I've used LODO stuff with an Amber which was magical. So it remains a part of my repertoire, and for good reason.

***************​

I've done this LODO thing long enough now that I can offer some conclusions, based on my own experience and no one else's: there is definitely an effect and at times it's stunning. At other times, it produces a beer that's still....impressive....but one I don't necessarily want to drink.

In the end, people should ignore LODO techniques if it's not their thing, but they also shouldn't dismiss them as a figment of imagination. The result is not a figment.

But really, why should anyone care what I do in brewing? Or you do? My family still loves me. I have beer *I* like on tap. My bank account neither shrinks nor grows based on others' preferences.

And what the heck--it's not that hard to try it and produce discernable results. @bassmann2003 has shown exactly how to do that in the quoted post. You don't need expensive equipment to give it a shot. You may or may not like what it does, but then you can decide if the fiddling is worth the result.

Good luck to all with this, and let's hope we can get back to more civility here.

 

[Pappers_]

I was wondering if some experienced German style brewer, would take me under her/her wing and teach me how to brew decent German style beers in accordance with Reinheitsgebot?

I know this became a LODO thread, but there are lots of other aspects of how to brew good German-style beers. For me, when I read Yeast (the book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff) the second time and started to try to take what they were writing about and apply it to my process and context, my lagers in particular took a decided turn upward in quality. Fermentation, for me, is the key to great lagers.

Another step forward for me was when I started doing decoctions, after reading/watching Brau Kaisers materials for the third or fourth time. I don't do decoctions for all my lagers, but I do for the Germans.

An IRL friend of mine brews a killer Bock, that has won both category and best of show gold medals and been brewed up at a commercial brewery (Hailstorm) and added to their regular rotation. He doesn't do LODO, so he couldn't help you with that, but he could perhaps help you with any specific questions you have. If you want to get in contact with him, send me PM.

 

[Jeff...]

I know this became a LODO thread, but there are lots of other aspects of how to brew good German-style beers. For me, when I read Yeast (the book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff) the second time and started to try to take what they were writing about and apply it to my process and context, my lagers in particular took a decided turn upward in quality. Fermentation, for me, is the key to great lagers.

Another step forward for me was when I started doing decoctions, after reading/watching Brau Kaisers materials for the third or fourth time. I don't do decoctions for all my lagers, but I do for the Germans.

An IRL friend of mine brews a killer Bock, that has won both category and best of show gold medals and been brewed up at a commercial brewery (Hailstorm) and added to their regular rotation. He doesn't do LODO, so he couldn't help you with that, but he could perhaps help you with any specific questions you have. If you want to get in contact with him, send me PM.

I may take you up on that offer - thanks.

You wouldn't happen to be able to post the recipe here would you?

 

[Pappers_]

I may take you up on that offer - thanks.

You wouldn't happen to be able to post the recipe here would you?

I don't know it and he's not a member here, sorry. I'm pretty sure he'd share it with you though.

 

[Die_Beerery]

@Jeff...

You rang?

 

[Jeff...]

@Jeff...

You rang?

I did... Yes. Teach me how to make a nice German Traditional Bock.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I did... Yes. Teach me how to make a nice German Traditional Bock.

Certainly! Just let me know when you get though the Brewing Textbook section here, and we can move to stage 2.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

 

[Immocles]

Certainly! Just let me know when you get though the Brewing Textbook section here, and we can move to stage 2.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

I've been following this thread for the hell of it, and the chance of picking up a random pointer here and there. That is an impressive compilation of information.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I've been following this thread for the hell of it, and the chance of picking up a random pointer here and there. That is an impressive compilation of information.

Thanks!

Where in Mn are you?

 

[Immocles]

South Central area of the state. New Ulm, its a heavily German town, and not just with the beer.

 

[Die_Beerery]

South Central area of the state. New Ulm, its a heavily German town, and not just with the beer.

I am in MN as well, Mid central, and know New Ulm and some of the head brewers at Schells quite well.

 

[Jeff...]

Certainly! Just let me know when you get though the Brewing Textbook section here, and we can move to stage 2.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

That is a TALL order.

I'm on the hops section. This chart, is very interesting to me. Because it's broken out by country. If I'm understanding correctly... These German hop varieties, a brewer would use for an authentic German style?

Also I never knew hops are primarily a preservative without it's acid contribution beer would quickly turn to vinegar due to secondary infection.

PH, PH, PH it's all about PH. Focus attention to PH first and foremost.

I need much more study...

 

[Bilsch]

That is a TALL order Jedi Master

Don't complain.. you are getting off easy.
Back in the day there was no site to go to with all the information nicely placed there to read. Instead you had to be lucky enough to get invited to join the closed FB group and then try to pick up process by listening carefully and not asking too many stupid questions.

Go, read and enjoy the free knowledge. Remember, low oxygen brewing is mostly just good brewing practice and even if you never do a batch that way, you will still absorb lots of useful things to help improve your game.

 

[Jeff...]

Don't complain.. you are getting off easy.
Back in the day there was no site to go to with all the information nicely placed there to read. Instead you had to be lucky enough to get invited to join the closed FB group and then try to pick up process by listening carefully and not asking too many stupid questions.

Go, read and enjoy the free knowledge. Remember, low oxygen brewing is mostly just good brewing practice and even if you never do a batch that way, you will still absorb lots of useful things to help improve your game.

I'm trying my best to take full advantage of all this great information. It's going to take.me a while to get though it and comprehend what I can. It's most definitely read and reread multiple times, deep subject... expecially to try and relate it to tiny batches, that a home brewer would brew.

 

[Jeff...]

I have a question... Reading about mashing and enzymatic conversation starches to sugars. Why couldn't bittering hops also be added to the mash tun during the mashing cycle? Would this adversely impact mash PH?

 

[Jeff...]

I've been following this thread for the hell of it, and the chance of picking up a random pointer here and there. That is an impressive compilation of information.

Bro... I'm green so I doubt you'll get much of anything useful from me. But please do contribute... I'm soaking up as much as I can like a sponge. I may need a ram upgrade though. My brain is only so big...

 

[Jeff...]

Note Worthy.

An important malt-derived volatile is dimethyl sulphide (DMS, 4.112), the
flavour threshold of which is 40±60 ppb but some all-malt lagers with 100 ppb DMS are found acceptable. Above this level DMS gives a sweetcorn flavour. DMS is produced by thermal decomposition of S-methylmethionine the half-life of which is reported to be 35 min. at 100C. DMS formed by kilning and wort boiling will be rapidly lost by evaporation but S-methylmethionine will continue to break down during wort
cooling and the DMS formed then will persist into beer. To minimize such DMS formation it is recommended to use malts with low S-methylmethionine contents and to extend the wort boiling time to decompose the majority of the precursor and drive off the DMS. Worts from high-temperature wort boiling systems contain negligible amounts of DMS and its precursors. It is also
recommended to minimize the whirlpool stand time and to use quick wort cooling to reduce the time that the wort is held hot.

 

[Jeff...]

Note Worthy #2

The copper finings should be added early enough in the boil so that they all dissolve but late enough so that they are not significantly degraded. For the
same reason long stands in the whirlpool should be avoided. A wort of pH of 5.0 is required for efficient fining and worts below pH 4.5 often fail to fine. A difference of 0.3 pH units can make a difference between optimum (A) clarity and poor (D) clarity. Malt
variety and quality also influences copper fining performance. As well as the influence malt has on the pH of the wort, the amount of cold break protein (the amount of cold break that forms naturally without the addition of copper finings) correlates positively with copper fining performance.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

To be clear when I mentioned German breweries doing low oxygen I did say Macros. As was already mentioned by Martin, the bulk of German breweries do not do this but are also making darker, more highly hopped and sour styles where the effects of stage B oxidation are not noticed as much. Most of these breweries are small and it's not practical or affordable to upgrade especially when their customer base is close and accustomed to the 'house flavors' as they call it.

Which German breweries would you consider as "Macro"?
Would you also include the likes of e.g. Augustiner, Tegernseer, Ayinger, Weihenstephaner, etc. into this category?
Most of these highly respected bavarian breweries I wouldn't consider as Macro personally, and they are producing Helles Lager as their core beer style. Do you know if those are also implementing low oxygen procedures?

 

[Gruel]

Certainly! Just let me know when you get though the Brewing Textbook section here, and we can move to stage 2.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

Thanks for the list! I couldn't get the Kunze link (to vlb) to work. This here is a link to the 6th edition: Technology Brewing and Malting (6th) | VLB Berlin

And since VLB is giving out a free sample, I thought I link it, so that everybody interested can decide on the readability, or lack thereof, for themselves; it's four pages from the chapter about mashing:
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/sites/default/files/2019-07/KunzeEN_2019_Extract.pdf(Unfortunately table 3.4 is missing...)

 

[madscientist451]

I'm bound and determined to learn how to brew a decent Traditional Bock. I've attempted a traditional Bock several times with various levels of success. All drinkable, but not close to authentic and what I've drank while visiting Germany.

What recipe and specific ingredients did you use?
Also, what was your process?
What beers are you comparing it to?